Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
|
Iraq and Afghanistan are 2 seperate, different wars. And I'm sorry about your buddies. Really.
You make it sound like I'm celebrating war and killing people. This is where my buddy misinterpreted my enthusiasm for our success.
I want our guys to make that country Afghanistan again and come home. The Afghanistan of the past 20-30 years was a distortion of Islam that pushed people down and disallowed the will of man to progress into the 19th century, let alone the 20th or 21st.
I understand Islam's disappointment with the 'new' West. I actually agree with them for the most part. They hate infidelity, pornography, Camel-toed women, and titties hanging out. I agree!
But their remedy for that is unacceptable, and like liberals, they use that excuse to impose ridiculous laws on people in the name of Islamic righteousness. The ban TV's so you can't watch anything to sway you from Islam, they ban women from attending school because women have a place...at home rearing kids and a f*#ktoy for the husband.
It's really twisted.
I'd like to see Afghanistan remain a true Islamic state that is pure and humane. That won't happen until we expel the Taliban and 'foreign' remnants. Usually that means shooting them in the face!
Face reality, dude.
To come off as some self-righteous fool doesn't help this mission and doesn't help the guys in the field of fire.
Pakistan ain't f*#king carrying their weight recently either...
Most importantly he told me not believe any of the media, they all have agendas.
That's why I like reading Michael Yon's posts. He's there, he is seeing and documenting what few others are.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
|
Hey Karl, how do you feel about Western Pakistan. That is the genesis of this conflict IMO.
That's where it comes from. It's like a cancer that spread from the Western tribal regions into Eastern Afghanistan.
It's actually spreading East too, now, into the cities of Pakistan, you know, the place where they cut Daniel Peal's head off, just after making him say his parents were Jewish.
WTF???
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 11:30am PT
|
Looks like Michael isn't making any friends with the British MoD for trying to stay embedded with the good soldiers of 2 Rifles.
Seems they don't like his kind of front-line honest reporting. The soldiers do though...and that's all that matters.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/bullsh#t-bob.htm
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
|
I have an idea for the "War in Afghanistan"
Get out of the country. Stop trying to take over the world. Don't try to impose your will on every single country you feel is a strategic interest.
2003-2010. 7 year war and they still can't beat a bunch of cave dwelling, towel heads?
What does that say about this mission exactly?
The country of my parent's origin has been war torn for 30 years. It's time for some peace from the war machine.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
|
The Taliban in Their Own Words
During wars and after them, the real voice of the enemy is rarely heard. Propaganda is plentiful, as are prideful boasts—and the Taliban have certainly been quick studies at the modern art of information warfare. But the fears and ambitions of ordinary fighters are too often buried under statistics and theories propounded from thousands of miles away. That's been even more true in Iraq and Afghanistan, where reporters who might accurately convey the other side's perspective are at risk of being kidnapped or killed for their efforts.
After eight long years of war in Afghanistan,.....
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216235/page/1
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
|
..
I have an idea for the "War in Afghanistan"
Get out of the country. Stop trying to take over the world. Don't try to impose your will on every single country you feel is a strategic interest.
2003-2010. 7 year war and they still can't beat a bunch of cave dwelling, towel heads?
The problem is that due to Pakistan's failure to govern their Western province, the Taliban had essentially overrun Afghanistan and turned it into a 14th century land of oppression (if your a woman) and persecution (if you like watching t.v. or listening to music).
I don't really have a problem if people want to live the 'tribal life', but when they started to house terrorists and camps to train people for attacks on other countries, well, then it becomes an 'international' problem.
What does that say about this mission exactly?
A lot. We have only started to make progress when we dumped more troops in and Pakistan got off it's ass and started to confront it's internal problems. (Not that Pakistan likely did this, not to help us, but because the SWAT and FATA areas started to attack the Pak gov't).
The country of my parent's origin has been war torn for 30 years. It's time for some peace from the war machine.
I would seriously love to talk to your folks, Mason. Seriously. I'd wager that they're kinda pulling for a country without Islamic radicals and Taliban.
I guess the question is how to accomplish that without pissing off the peaceful/innocent tribal people and city dwellers.
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
|
//The problem is that due to Pakistan's failure to govern their Western province, the Taliban had essentially overrun Afghanistan and turned it into a 14th century land of oppression (if your a woman) and persecution (if you like watching t.v. or listening to music).
I don't really have a problem if people want to live the 'tribal life', but when they started to house terrorists and camps to train people for attacks on other countries, well, then it becomes an 'international' problem.//
I agree, it is bad to house terrorists. The problem is the military has done such a horrible job getting them (Osama and the taliban) out that they've destroyed villages, lives and livestock in the process. They've made enemies. Maybe if they had concentrated their efforts on getting them out 7 years ago instead of invading Iraq they might have spent less money and wasted less resources and killed less Afghan women, children and men.
//A lot. We have only started to make progress when we dumped more troops in and Pakistan got off it's ass and started to confront it's internal problems. (Not that Pakistan likely did this, not to help us, but because the SWAT and FATA areas started to attack the Pak gov't).
//
America should have dumped more troops into Afghanistan in the first place instead of securing oil fields in Iraq as I stated earlier.
//I would seriously love to talk to your folks, Mason. Seriously. I'd wager that they're kinda pulling for a country without Islamic radicals and Taliban.
I guess the question is how to accomplish that without pissing off the peaceful/innocent tribal people and city dwellers.//
Maybe they would. But here's the thing. I can walk to any corner of Oakland today and find fresh Afghani bud or heroine easier now than I could 8 years ago. Opium harvesting has expanded ever since the Taliban were pushed out of those areas. Before, the Taliban went in there and destroyed all the Opium poppies. Secondly, there was some rule of law with the Taliban. Now, there is nothing. There are feudal lords or whatever you want to call them and they fight amongst themselves for power like little goat herders trying to get a small piece of the pie. There's more chaos in certain parts of that country now than there ever was with the Taliban. Kind of like how so much chaos broke out in the middle east when Hussein was hung.
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
|
Afganistan is a no win situation. Best to salt the land with CS135 so no can live there.
Juan
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
|
I guess that's why they let the grown ups make the real military decisions and let the average joes like you guys give "suggestions."
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
|
First off I don't claim to be an expert on Afghanistan. I do, however, follow the current situation closely using many sources, some of them credible military sources, some retired intelligence. Almost none appear on Fox or MSNBC or CNN.
Sure this has gone on too long. Realize, whether you like/agree with it or not that we were fighting a war on 2 fronts. Two wars. The Afghani one was quelled immediately but never resolved when the more heavily equipped second foe was engaged. The second foe (Iraq) was better equipped and involved misunderstood religious sectarian crap (Sunni/Shia).
This is why Iraq was a primary focus after they were engaged. Iraq was only quelled and their gov't established after the 'surge' of Petraeus who is an academic expert in COIN (counter insurgency operations). It wasn't until his surge took hold that Iraq was calmed somewhat and our forces could stand back.
There still is violence but it's insignificant in terms of the overall picture. (I know, tell that to the family of Mosque suicide bombers...).
This is while Petraeus was commander of Iraqi troops. I believe he now commands all overseas troops in conflict.
Now that Iraq is essentially a non combat zone for the US forces, we have diverted attention back to theater1...Afghanistan. Guess which strategy will be deployed?
Yes, the COIN master will again deploy his master strategy to the former Spec Ops commander, McChrystal (Mac). This is probably why Mac wants to talk so badly to the pussy-in-chief, Obama. He wants to surge troop levels, have a presence in as many places aas possible and assure the 'locals' that we are in charge and they don't have to fear the Taliban wife-beaters anymore. This started about 2 months ago and is already working. Just look at some of Yon's dispatches.
Problem is, we need to do this while simultaneously securing the Pak border where all the Taliban fled to. We also need the Paki's to do their job and pursue them too (which they're starting to do). This will limit the need for airstrikes in populated villages that the Taliban cowards use as cover. They know how to use this strategy. They ain't stupid.
So, another 30-40 thousand troops should get us out of Afghan in 1 year...at least out of combat ops. Maybe 2 years.
It's a more difficult theater than Iraq because you're dealing with tribal peoples as well as city-folk in the larger cities.
The Taliban have largely retreated in the past 2 weeks, they know what's coming. We know where they are though. We just can't enter Quetta, Pakistan to go get them. The Paki's need to do their part.
At this point, we're looking to pacify the country, root out the existing Taliban, and keep the bastards in Pak from coming back in.
This war will be over in 2 years tops....with minimal casualties to civilians from us from here on out. MARK MY WORDS!!!
The Paki ccivilians are already starting to betray the Talibs and 'foreigners' from Arab countris in the FATA and SWAT areas. Women are attacking militants with axes and whole villages are shooting up infiltrating terrorist occupiers.
http://207.114.86.27/poparticle.php?ID=280046&D=2009-09-30&SO=&HC=1
Put a fork in it.
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
|
Lol did you just tell me to put a fork in it blue?? Haha whatever you say if you support this war you support the theft of trillions in treasury tax dollars by war mongering corporations. And Rokjox, those pissants you're talking about? You know that little dime bag sorry excuse you call a "sack" (read cahones), well the typical 10 year old Afghan boy has a pounder if you catch my drift. He's taken out more soviets, taliban and other random warlord fodder in his 10 years of life than most National guard have gotten their rocks off.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
|
No, Mason, the 'fork in it' reference was to this war being done. It's over.
Especially if McChrystal gets his troops. It's over, just like Iraq....
We won. The only if is Pakistan. They have nowhere to go now...the Talifags.
Hey, I'm climbing on Saturday. Let's do it! You pick the spot.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
|
you support the theft of trillions in treasury tax dollars by war mongering corporations.
Well, Obama is gonna do that anyway, already has....
|
|
mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
|
Hahahahaha oh put a fork in it!!! I get it! The studying and day trading have put me out of it today. I'm down for whatever! Consumnes river! No just playin' I'll think of spot. Saturday?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
|
Yeah right.
The Soviets thought they won in Afghanistan for awhile too. Dream on. Nobody like the guys who invade your country and that goes triple for the Afghans
They are patient, infinitely patient, we are not.
How long we think we "Won" anything in Afghanistan or Iraq even, remains to be seen.
Peace
Karl
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Sep 30, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
|
//The Soviets thought they won in Afghanistan for awhile too. Dream on. Nobody like the guys who invade your country and that goes triple for the Afghans
//
That's rich, Karl, it's almost as if you'd take pleasure in another American failure....We'll see, huh?
WTF were you at Facelift too, f*#ker!!!! Wassup!
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Taking factual note that we're up to stupid unwinnable conflicts is not the same as taking pleasure in them Bluering. If I though you chose your thoughts and words carefully, I'd be offended.
It's so simple that it's stupid. Can't you just try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes with some integrity of feeling? If you wouldn't put up with traditional Islamic invaders running this country through invasion and/or proxy, what makes you think they will tolerate us no matter what the intention? The Afghans may have all kinds of faults and failings but for hundreds of years, being "Wimps" is not one of them.
And what does "Winning" mean over there? It's practically a medieval country! What can we win?
The people who want to attack the US and have the means to do so are not in Afghanistan!
Think about it. Don't be a sheep. How many Hijackers were Afghani? None! What evidence is there that the Taliban knew of the 9-11 attacks in advance. None! How many hijackers trained in Afghanistan? Do we even know?
We could invaded Saudi Arabia with more justification after 9-11. We still didn't get our man. what a joke.
Quite feeding on the party line. Obama's a fool for thinking he could redeem Afghanistan. He's probably just looking for a way out and is facing a LBJ moment where his whole program could flail out of being sucked into a war nobody can win. No pleasure in that. It's sad.
Think about it man, how would some enemy invade and convince you to support him? No way right? No way!
Peace
Karl
Wanted to be at facelift FAR more than I was. Just had a bunch of super busy stuff going on.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
Karl, what is there to win in Afghanistan? Nothing really.
We're only trying to make it place where they can live as they once did, prior to the Talibanization of the country. If they want to live tribally, fine, I don't think we're trying to deny them that.
As far as the Taliban or Afghanis not being involved in attacks on this country, that is absolutely correct! However, after the attacks, when the Taliban refused to give up the perpetrators they were harboring, they became conspirators, didn't they?
The conflict has, no doubt, turned into a clusterfu$k. If we do bail out too soon, however, the country would inevitably crash back into the hands of Taliban types.
The goal should be to get the gov't standing firmly and establish a security force that is capable of dealing with hostile entities intent on taking over the country.
Unfortunately the losers, other than the Taliban, are a lot of Afghani people who didn't want the Taliban but are now sitting in the middle of a gunfight.
Hopefully this ends soon.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!