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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Lois, the snarky remarks directed at you by some of the kids are a defense mechanism. Your posts present too much "meat" for them to handle comfortably.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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2. habeus corpus - Klinefelter, excuse me for living. We simply cannot all be as brilliant as you. For everyone else, can we clarify the issues here?
Jesus f*#king christ, are you really that dense? Check it out, they have a thing called "the google" now.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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LEB -
Simply Google it. It's been in the news pretty much constantly for the past 5 years or so.
McCain DID oppose torture but then he folded around the time he clinched the nomination and voted for a bill that allowed it. So much for the principled maverick. He was the Voice of Reason during the Republican debates on immigration, but quickly leaped off the side of the middle road and into the waiting arms of the wall building isolationists.
Woody:
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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LEB,
You've been posting online for a wee bit, you are very verbose, and you come across as a human being who speaks with a bit of knowledge, but you also seem dumb as a sack of hammers on occasion. What sort of troll are you really?
BTW, I don't think some of the guys at GITMO arn't worth our oxygen, but there is already an established history of wrongful imprisonment there dang ol' uighers. so why not give them the rights guaranteed in our constitution. (By way of heading off the criticism, there ain't nothing in the BoR about citizenship).
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There's a fine article in the New York Times today, called "The Trolls Among Us", subtitle "Malwebolence - The World of Web Trolling".
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
The article examines at length the phenomena of internet trolling and abuse, using as examples forums such as one called /b/, which apparently has a lot of aggressive if not downright asocial trolls. It may be relevant to the current discussion, and to LEB's 2006 thread titled "What is a Troll?".
The article also refers to something called Encyclopedia Dramatica, an on-line compendium of trolldom.
Strictly speaking, the article is in the NYT magazine for August 3rd, but seems to get on the website a day early. It seven pages long, and I haven't read it all yet - maybe even SuperTopo is mentioned?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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"By way of heading off the criticism, there ain't nothing in the BoR about citizenship"
Nothing in the Bill of Rights about citizenship?
I guess,
except for the part where it is attached to the Constitution.
So Skipt, a tourist from say, Canada, has absolutely no legal rights here? Or do they bring the laws of their nation with them?
I guess next time I visit a foreign nation I'll site my rights as an American when I'm charged with any legal shite.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Yeppers, but they all used to have habeus corpus rights. Welcome to the new world order.
So who gets to decide who the terrorists are, and do you trust them?
Don't worry, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about, eh?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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there is a world of difference between you average run of the mill Canadian citizen and Al-Quaeda activists.
Yep.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Ummm, the madman stabbed and decapitated one person. Only one. And there's been no report that he tried to eat anyone.
Habeas corpus, as even your Supreme Court recognizes, applies anywhere in U.S. territory, and in all U.S. courts. That was the essential point of the high-profile case a few months ago. The administration said that because the prisoners were foreign, and because Guantanamo Bay isn't U.S. territory, that the constitution didn't apply there. It lost.
They long since realized they weren't going to get away with it, though - apparently the last new prisoners in Guantanamo were in 2003 or 2004. I don't want to think of what dark hole the new prisoners are being held in, without any government accountability.
The U.S. can be rather aggressive in terms of claiming that its laws apply extra-territorially, though.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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I watched Obama's speech today. He wants to turn textile plants into plants that make solar cells.
It was all quite ridiculous.
This Obama is just a Celebrity.
Juan
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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"there is a world of difference between you average run of the mill Canadian citizen and Al-Quaeda activists."
but we can never let there be another Brian Ferry.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Or Paul Anka. Or Celine Dion.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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So Weschrist, I'm a f*cking moron just because I don't like Obama.
Charming.
EDIT
Noshoesnoshirt, what the f*ck does a nutter on a bus have to do with this thread?
ALSO
I am by no means a McCain supporter, and certainly by no means a Bushite. I just don't like Obama's demeanor and rhetoric. I just wish there was a candidate I could believe in and support.
I'm still writing in Cynthia McKinney.
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grunt
Social climber
Omaha NE.
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Hi All you rockies out there! I've found this forum interesting and impressive to say the least.I just signed up to this forum as I was looking for drill bits for a Ryodi gas powered hammer drill that I have, and this popped up through a Google search. Not to change the political subject on all of you.
I have a (NEW)NEVER USED in the original box Ryobi GAS POWERED HAMMER DRILL That I have NO use for. It is a small lightweight model gas powered hammer drill. I would like to get around $200.00 for it as it cost over $300 when it was purchased.
I have been selling items on eBay since 1999 (mostly old car stuff) and have an excellent feedback record. You can check out my feedback if you'd like, my eBay ID is Sgrunt76. If anyone is interested I can provide pictures and can even start an auction on eBay for it if they'd like. This may be of interest for all you rock crackers, climers and collectors out there. Sgrunt@juno.com Thanks! for your time! And sorry to interupt the political debate. The only climbing I've done was @ joshua tree national park Ca. And up to the dinner table. HA HA. Here in Nebraska isn't very mountainous
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Well dang Skip, my truck is broke down too. Could we schedule this for somewhere close to Arkansas?
I'll bring refreshments if you bring the rope (or crash pad)
Regards,
Kerry
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stnmn
climber
intransit
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Obama: a brilliant, compassionate, flexible intellect, is better than this country deserves. The morons of this country will once again vote against their own interests and elect McCain, a complete f*#king moron who doesn't even know the details of the one issue he believes is important (sunni? shiite? hey, they're all arabs!), and admits he knows nothing about the economy except to continue to lower taxes -- the man is Herbert Hoover reincarnated.
I don't give a sh#t. It will all be fine for me, I make plenty of cash with no end of it coming. It will make me care less about the idiots of middle america when they further fall into their festering poverty of mobile homes and guns to see them vote to continue the policies that have put them there in the first place. The Reagan Revolution has destroyed this country and we are well on our way to being Mexico, a land of huge gaps in wealth and a 50% poverty rate.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I'm curious about the SCOTUS decision vis a vis the prisoners in Gitmo. During WWII, thousands of German and Italian prisoners were held here in the US. Would those thousands have been given the same HC rights now given to the Gitmo detainees?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"there is a world of difference between you average run of the mill Canadian citizen and Al-Quaeda activists."
You'd hope but be wrong
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/canadian-terror-suspect-tortured-in-syria-after-rendition-by-us-416726.html
Lois says the gitmo crew are all bad news even though I've proved it to her before many, many were innocent, sold by enemies, rival tribes and debtors
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0531-10.htm
"...They fed them well. The Pakistani tribesmen slaughtered a sheep in honor of their guests, Arabs and Chinese Muslims famished from fleeing U.S. bombing in the Afghan mountains. But their hosts had ulterior motives: to sell them to the Americans, said the men who are now prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified during military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit..."
Funny, they've prosecuted hardly anybody, sent hundreds home without charges, and started their war crimes trails with lin ladens' driver. (wonder if you could get indicted for war crimes for driving Bush?)
http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-ignored-warnings-on-detainees-20080712-3e5j.html
"...A CIA analyst warned the Bush Administration in 2002 that up to a third of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, might have been imprisoned by mistake, but White House officials ignored the finding and insisted that all were "enemy combatants", subject to indefinite incarceration, according to a new book.
The CIA assessment directly challenged the Administration's claim that the detainees were all hardened terrorists - the "worst of the worst", as then defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld said.
But a top aide to US Vice-President Dick Cheney shrugged off the report and quashed proposals for a quick review of the detainees' cases, author Jane Mayer writes in The Dark Side, scheduled for release this week.
"There will be no review," the book quotes Cheney staff director David Addington as saying. "The President has determined that they are all enemy combatants. We are not going to revisit it.".."
The founding fathers said some human rights were universal, self-evident, and belonged to ALL.
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Skipt- "Not even the Supreme Court has said that."
Skipt if the supreme court had said it then it would be law. Saying "not even" implies that they are somehow the lowest possible denominator, not the highest.
Lost Arrow- Um.....how is retraining people to do a new job rediculous? Our manufacturing jobs have been gushing out the door like the Falls in May. Any politician is going to look for ways to get those people into new jobs that require the smallest amount of training possible. That textile worker isn't going to get an IT degree most likely and McCain's answer is basically "good luck to ya" so what do you think he should have said?
I gotta say it's really funny to listen to the media stories trickle down. First Obama isn't specific enough and everyone here says he's not specific. Then liberals are embarrassed and wished that we had gone with Hillary. Now Obama's "just a celebrity" which is exactly what the right wing media has been squawking all week. Do you even realize that you're doing it?
LEB- While I see that you struggle to put these issues in context of your own life, I'm afraid it's because you haven't done any actual reading or research on them. There is an analogy there but it isn't the one you made. To stick with the medical analogy, what happened at Gitmo would be akin to you being instructed to not allow certain patients to see a doctor or perhaps not admitting certain patients to the hospital based on economic status. Even giving the appearance of care while not actually doing anything.
Yes it is possible,more likely probable that the officials know more than we do. That is why we have checks and balances. Our complaint is not that these people are being held captive it is that we have no assurances that the people with the power to hold them are in the right. This is why our system was created to have oversight by different branches of government. All we want is for a process to allow that oversight to be had. Bush and McCain want no such oversight and simply want us to trust that they know what is best and are operating within the law. So far the evidence hasn't been very compelling that this is the case a lot of the time. We aren't asking for NEW oversight, simply for the existing provisions of the Constitution and the law to be enforced.
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