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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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Call it belligerent if you wish, but when someone claims that birth, death, and disease are prophesy my bullsh!t alarm goes apesh!t.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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The religious point of view is like looking at the sun through a magnifying glass and claiming that it is the only light.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 25, 2008 - 11:52pm PT
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Dirt in Eye, why so hostile ? Can people not calmly converse about their differences of opinion ? What a crazy world it would be if we all agreed with one another.
Billy Graham said once, "If my wife and I agreed on everything, one of us would be unncessary."
Peace and Joy on a beautiful Friday evening. LRL
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 26, 2008 - 12:59am PT
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Lynne,
Sometimes Wanda is trolling, but usually she is just another fish called Wanda.
I don't have the emotional investment in my belief in logic, probability and the efficacy of the scientific method that someone of faith has in his or her beliefs. Faith is based on emotion; it can be intellectualized, but it is an emotional component of your identity.
So when I say something silly, about some made up faith, though it is meant to gently mock the illogical, improbable, untestable, baseless statements of the faithful, it can sound to the faithful as harsh and mean and hurtful.
When Werner criticizes science, or when someone is intentionally obtuse about Evolution, I don't take it personally, and it doesn't hurt my feelings; I just find it frustrating that grown people that I otherwise respect, and find to be sensible in many other areas, are so willing to believe in a fairy tale that promises all the answers, but doesn't have any evidence except the believer's own strong emotions.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 26, 2008 - 01:28am PT
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So Wanda, potential troll, which I am not I am just Lynne.
First, my faith in jesus is most definetly not based on emotion.
No fairy tales for me. If what jesus said did not work in my life I would have jettisoned it immediately.
Jesus is real and loves us and has a plan for each of our lives.
People can change...jesus will give us the power and ability to do so.
Peace and Joy along with much Grace, Lynnie
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 26, 2008 - 02:27am PT
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It is not possible to prove that God exists, just as it is impossible to prove that God does not exist.
But even if it were possible to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no God, some people would still choose to believe.
When I was a child of six, Santa Claus brought me joy and happiness, as he did for other little children. It is important to try to preserve some of your inner child, some of the wonder, but there are times to put away childish things. The message of Santa Claus works. We grow and realize that Santa is not real, but hopefully we still want to be nice rather than naughty.
I'm not saying the words and ideas attributed to Jesus are not meaningful, only that when someone relies on magical, mystical miracles to explain the way the world works, they don't know when it's time to put away childish ideas.
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Double D
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 07:41am PT
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My, my, my it's interesting how the venom spews when the name Jesus or the bible comes into the picture! Mention any other name connected with a major religion or cult and you really don't get the same heated reactions. Interesting.....
There's power in that.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 26, 2008 - 08:43am PT
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So it's hostile to call a fairy tale a fairy tale?
Indeed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 26, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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DD: My, my, my it's interesting how the venom spews when the name Jesus or the bible comes into the picture! Mention any other name connected with a major religion or cult and you really don't get the same heated reactions. Interesting.....
There's power in that.
Indeed. Which explains Christianity's long record of human rights abuses. Yahweh was a war god, and no matter how much peroxide Jesus pours on that, the roots are always black. At least Islam is honest about it. Buddhism, on the other hand, has no doctrinal imperative to conquer and convert, and so has not built up a history of smug and ruthless oppression all in the name of goodness and light.
Jesus is a guilt trip.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 10:43am PT
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Atheism has become like a religion. It's followers carry themselves around with an attitude no different than a hardline Christian or Muslim.
It has become the defining characteristic of that person. They feel the need to "spread the word" of atheism.
God is/has been proven beyond the shadow of doubt.
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andanother
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 10:55am PT
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"God is/has been proven beyond the shadow of doubt."
No it hasn't. And it never will be.
I don't think atheists are out there "spreading the word". We just get a great deal of amusement out of making fun of weak minded individuals such as yourself.
It HAS been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the concept of "god" exists simply because some people NEED it to exist. "God" is nothing more than a parental figure for those who are too weak to grow up. It's nice being a child, isn't it?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 26, 2008 - 10:55am PT
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HAHAHA, yeah, like there's all those rabid atheists running around wanting to torture and kill because you don't beleive what they believe.
Keep talking Wernner, you're batting 1000.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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God is the Supreme intelligent creator of the entire cosmic creation/manefestation.
You can only create havoc with your inferior unalined conciousness.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 26, 2008 - 11:34am PT
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God likes havoc. Keeps things interesting, I guess. You can get awfully bored sitting around forever, after all.
I come very briefly to this place. I watch it move. I watch it shake.
Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo.
Ushano kokoku. Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.
Mountain with clouds. A cry. My voice.
Home of the brave. I'm here now. And lost.
They say the dead will rise again. And here they come now.
Strange animals out of the Ice Age. And they stare at you.
Dumbfounded. Like big mistakes. And we say: Keep cool.
Maybe if we pretend this never happened, they'll all just go away.
Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. Mewotoji. Mewotoji.
Kikunowa kotori. Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo.
I am here in this place. Losing. My eyes are closed. Closed.
Birds are there. Hearing something. Shouting. My voice.
(And yet, we could all be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.)
Kumowaku yamano. Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.
Kumiwaku yamano. Kikunowa kotori. Watashino sakebi.
Mountains with clouds. I am there. Lost.
Mountains with clouds. Birds are there. Hearing something. A shout.
They say the world is smaller now. Small world.
They say that man is taller now. Tall man.
They say the stars are closer now. Thank you, lucky stars.
You come very briefly to this place.
Jikanwa tomaru. Ushano kokoku.
Time is stopped. Home of the brave.
And on a very distant star, slimy creatures scan the skies.
They've got plates for hands. And telescopes for eyes. And they say: Look! Down there, a haunted planet, spinning around.
They say: Watch it move. Watch it shake. Watch it turn. And shake.
Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. Kumowaku yamano.
Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. Mewotoji. Mewotoji.
I am there. Lost. Mountains with clouds.
A cry. A shout. My eyes are shut. Shut.
And we say: Watch us move. Watch us shake. We're so pretty.
We're so pretty. We say: Watch us move now. Watch us shake.
We're so pretty. Shake our hands. Shake our heads. We shake our feet.
We're so fine. The way we move. The way we shake.
We're so nice.
--Laurie Anderson
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andanother
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 11:40am PT
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My favorite part about mocking religious people is taking their words, and then turning those words around on them.
They take their opinion and state it as fact. So, just for fun, I then like to state MY opinion as fact. Of course, they never seem to get it. But some people do. Here's an example:
"God is the Supreme intelligent creator of the entire cosmic creation/manefestation. "
Actually, the only thing "god" has created is a mental condition that affects people worldwide.
"You can only create havoc with your inferior unalined conciousness(sic)."
Actually, YOU can only create havoc with your inferior unalined conciousness(sic).
I once read a book that said my opinions are right. Therefore, I can state them as fact. And you can't argue facts!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 26, 2008 - 11:46am PT
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Hahahaha
Too funny. I can get you guys so riled up.
Hahahahaha ......
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 27, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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LEB and Cintune, good evening !
LEB, you said, "How do I know it's jesus and not some other force or scenario causing these effects I perceive or believe in."
When I was 23 I left my husband and toddler son. When marriages have problems it is usually never just one person causing the problem...it takes two to make it work or not.
Looked like the end of our little family. Someone told Dan and me about jesus and the bible. Dan made a commitment. Took me about 6 months longer. jesus and his words saved our little family...grew our family to four kids...our marriage and love grew...Dan just died, but I'm ok thanks to jesus and many family and friends including you all on ST.
I am actually writing a book, LEB, cause jesus has been so real and there for me during my life. Practical, loving, getting it down when I screw up. He's my best friend and I spend good time early with him every day.
I know him, LEB,,,it's not effects I perceive or other force or scenario....he is my friend. He has always been by my side, watching my back, he gives me hope when I have none, help when I'm desperate and if I just listen he tells me what up...so that's the very very short version....Lynne
Cintune, "jesus is a guilt trip". What up with that ? Check out Matthew, Mark, Luke and John....he didn't even make Judas feel guilty.
Saved the woman taken by the Pharisee's from being stoned to death for adultery. Only people he was ever harsh to were the Pharisee's and the moneychangers in the temple. He kicked their .......out for taking advantage of people that wanted to worship, said to them, "You've made my Dad's house a den of thieves."
Of all people ... jesus does not do guilt trips. smiles, Lynne
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 27, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Lynne, about the guilt, I'm referring to the "Passion of the Christ" mentality surrounding the inexplicable "He died for our sins" dogma. Maybe that's not your particular cup of tea when it comes to what you like about the Jesus story, but it seems to have a morbid attraction for many people, and has pretty much kept the franchise going for 2000 years. As a way of feeling good about ourselves it goes back even further to the fertility religions that gave birth to Judaism. Nothing like a public human sacrifice to get people's minds off their problems. Instead of one a year, though, we'll just keep referring back to this special instance and pretend that it made some kind of cosmic difference forever. That is the only difference, and I suppose it's an improvement. Expecting that I will live forever thanks to some rehashed, proxy, cannibalistic ritual, however just doesn't fit my view of things, but you are free to draw your own conclusions.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine. My sins are my own, they belong to me." - Patti Smith
"Too many people have died in the name of Christ for anyone to heed the call, So many people have lied in the name of Christ that I can't believe it all." - Graham Nash
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2008 - 12:18pm PT
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Here's something that seems ironic to me...
If you take a strictly scientific, materialistic view of nature and consciousness, then intelligence is just the result of evolution refining the interaction of physical, chemical processes.
Seems to me, if you believe that, you have to believe in intelligent creation, since the formation of the universe, including life and us, would be a similar process of the interaction of physical, chemical processes.
In this way, no matter what you believe, there is still a God if you reject preconceptions of anthropomorphic images of a superhero that looks like us. Science tells us that everything is essentially vibrating energy arranged by information (information is just the best word for it, DNA is 'information' that structures our physical bodies)
You can call the totality of that energy "God" and can't argue that it isn't intelligent without denying that we aren't intelligent. After all, it became all this. If science says intelligence and consciousness are material, then the totality of material is also acting in a coherent, cohesive, systematic fashion.
So then the question becomes, how self-aware, and aware of us, is this totality? We should be careful in jumping to conclusions because, just as there is a huge difference between our own awareness and the awareness of an Ant, how awareness and intelligence function in a universal being is undoubtedly a stretch or impossible to conceive with our earthbound relative understanding.
Now I'm not saying that "material" is "God" nor that its function is any particular way. It just seems like some folks are saying that "we are intelligent and conscious and the universe is not." That's a mixed definition for which I don't see much evidence. We look at ourselves as Gods and the universe as inert but science tells us that it's all the same.
peace
Karl
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jul 27, 2008 - 12:29pm PT
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"My, my, my it's interesting how the venom spews when the name Jesus or the bible comes into the picture! Mention any other name connected with a major religion or cult and you really don't get the same heated reactions. Interesting.....
There's power in that. "
Not really. The vast majority of participants here are from the U.S.
And, in case you're not up on current events (kidding!), the U.S. has had 8 years of an installed regime that panders to the most deluded of the deluded of Christian fundamentalists. Even shunting tax money their way in clear violation of the spirit of the U.S. Constitution.
So really, the fundies "declared war" on the rational few first, which then catalyzed the upwelling of atheistic activism--consider the best sellers by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins of late. That's where the venom comes from.
Add to that add the current U.S. regime's scandal-a-week track record and the everyday neocon's flaccid acceptance of same, by simply parroting the sound bites from Faux Noise as if they passed for real thought.
Otherwise, good atheists are just carrying out their charter not to allow the deluded an uncommented-upon free pass to express their beliefs in fairies and whatnot.
Besides, everyone's having fun here--otherwise these religion threads wouldn't grow to hundreds upon hundreds of posts in length. And Jody hasn't even gotten into this one yet...
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