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Wonder
climber
WA
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Karl, I'm thinking of heading to India this year. I want to clean up my own past karma. Any suggestions or advice. serious. Cheers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Wonder, email me with what time of year you could go and I might have an idea or two
But basically, Nobody need to go anywhere in particular to clean up their lives and heart. You look within and let go and forgive. Perhaps go find people you are tweaked about and hang out with them as humans.
A magical way of visiting anywhere is simply not being too firm about your plans. Go to an interesting area, hang out, be open, and follow your nose. The right people will come along and one thing will lead to another.
The critical point is to have an "Intention." You might intend to learn something in particular about yourself, life, or Spirit, or you might intend to have adventure or anything. Strangely it works that if you clearly express an intention about what you are doing, Life comes around and serves it somehow.
PEace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Hey Folks
I was revisiting this thread and so I'm giving it a old bump
Love to all
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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Karl,
You missed all of the A-hole threads and hatred recently posted here on ST, it was great fun.
Namaste,
The evil one
I saw some of it. That why, not that the cabin fever is due to be over in a few weeks, we can do our forgiveness dance with each other and refresh our community more positively
Peace
karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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There are really only 4 modes of thinking:
Religious: "Everything is because god made it that way".
Scientific: "God is unnecessary to explain reality, reality is deduced from the material world"
Magical: "The reality is if it works it's real. Who cares if it isn't scientific or religious?"
Artistic: "What I create and bring forth is what is the root of the real"
Currently we are in the beginning stages of the threshold of entering a new magical age. Religion is going backward. Science is the dominant paradigm, but has overreached. It can only function in tightly controlled environments. It has replaced dualistic god\ devil with a dualistic Truth\untruth (based on materialism). Science thinks if we had a computer powerful enough to calculate all variables, we'd know everything. This is just another form of monotheism at its extreme limits (god as supercomputer).
Magic is the next step, and is that which distills reality from "whatever works" and uses multiple, even contradictory maps, irrespective of whether or not it can be reproduced in a laboratory under limited conditions. It is a shortcut, faster than science or religion (yet replaces neither). You say the earth isn't flat? Well it's flat enough for me! You say the earth isn't round (oblate spheroid)? Well it's round enough for me! (Magic) And so on...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Binks, what kind of pop psyche is that?
define magical, otherwise, saying what works is real, is pragmatism, not magic. Magic is inexplicable, pragmatism is explicable it's just not reductionistic.
can you cite a source?
Magical: "The reality is if it works it's real. Who cares if it isn't scientific or religious?"
Artistic: "What I create and bring forth is what is the root of the real"
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Mar 30, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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True Forgiveness is acted upon infinitely...Not spoken.
Then it is forgotten...move on.
RIGHT FRIKKIN' ON, PERRY!
Big props for your insight.
Erik
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Give it a chance Pate, I dare you!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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If you look within and observe your emotions, thoughts, and motives, you can see where your peace is disturbed.
Then look for how to resolve that disturbance. My experience is that forgiveness resolves great divisions within us. Acceptance is practically another word for forgiveness.
Absolutely, forgiving yourself is essential, but if it doesn't then include others, I wonder if it just becomes selfish justification.
How we feel in life is greatly dictated by our state of emotional clarity and health. Working on the pays dividends for ourselves and others.
Peace
Karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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OK, fine. Forgiveness is just one part, the other part is Justice. If there is injustice, there can't be closure regardless of "forgiveness" or "acceptance". Energetically, wrongs you have suffered or have inflicted have to be fixed with the principles of cosmic justice or no amount of "letting go", "accepting" etc will work. This is the work of karma. You can forgive, but the act is incomplete until Justice is served. And you can't release anyone from justice either just because "you're a nice guy", even if the wrong was done to you and you'd just rather forget it. They have to pay up karmically in some way. You don't have to be the one to make them do it, nonetheless it will be done eventually thru karma. That is just how it works. Nobody has to forgive you either. You can just say "I'm willing to have cosmic justice served on this issue (yourself included) and turn the matter over to the lords of karma". They might tell you you have to do something in person to resolve the issue, but they might not too. Then the matter is over.
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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Even God doesn’t have unconditional love. He throws people into hell. I personally don’t even think it’s an ideal. I think you have got to have a discriminating faculty and let bastards be bastards and let those that ought to be hit in the jaw get it. In fact, I have a list. If anybody has a working guillotine, I’d be glad to give them my list.
When I look
in the faces of my enemies
it makes me proud.
-Joseph Campbell
Just wanted to throw a little salt in and see what people really think.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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Binks:
Even God doesn’t have unconditional love. He throws people into hell.
I didn't think we were talking religion so much as simply forgiveness?
I agree with the Chief. God doesn't throw people into Hell. God gives people freedom of choice and expression. If anyone is going to Hell it's of their own doing.
~~~~~~~
The Chief:
RELIGION is for those that don't want to go to hell.
SPIRITUALITY is for those that have been to hell and never want to return.
I like that ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of my teachers have told me that in very ancient Hawaiian culture there was simply one law.
And... there was only one sentence for the convicted!
Let's say I stole from a neighbor and at village council I admit my transgression and ask the person I wronged for forgiveness. If the person wronged refuses to forgive then they become the societal problem and if they absolutely refuse to forgive then they would be sentenced. The sentence was not simply to be outcast forever, it was much more harsh than that. you were also stripped of your most precious belonging... your name. Not even your own mother would ever acknowlege you or ever peak you name again.
It was/is believed that if your name is never spoken or recognized then you become a ghost of sorts or what we call 'Kau wa' or stuck in time. Proverbially kicked off the conveyor belt of life. Never to return to the Godhead, source, initial conscienceness or whatever term works for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
As a young man I had no capacity for forgiveness at all.
I would hold and dwell on grudges for years.
One of my Hawaiian teachers taught me a lot about forgiveness. It took years for his teaching to even start to take hold in my life and interactions with others.
I knew that the negative mental energy I harbored ultimately only hurt me and not the person I was upset with. Still yet there was something simple I was not getting.
In a nut shell... You must forgive for your own mental and physical health.
Jesus' teachings talk a lot of forgiveness. In the bible it says he taught people to 'Turn the other cheek'.
This is where the conflict comes. How can I forgive when I also am told that the philosophy of 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' is a valid one?
OK Jesus was no fool. He said turn the other cheek. I don't think he meant to roll over and expose your jugular in submission too every passer by. No! instead he was saying... Don't retaliate. Forgive the transgressions against you but... if someone swings then duck stupid! Turn the cheek, deflect/side step the blow !
My teacher said "You can hit me in the head with a baseball bat and I can forgive you before you even wind up". He went on "But if you think I am not going to duck the blow your mistaken. And If I see you wind up a second time I will either be gone or you have me backed into a corner at which point I will be forced to do my best to neutralize your threat. I will still forgive you, but I won't let you do it to me a second time."
For me that was the key I was missing.
I always equated forgiveness with being submissive. it is not at all.
The key for me is in this expression:
"Just because I have forgiven you does not mean I have to let you do it too me again."
My teacher also taught about a word we have that loosely/generally translates to righteousness.
He taught about the word and explained it as simply a lifestyle of:
Ike aku, Ike mai
Aloha aku, Aloha mai
Kokua aku, Kokua mai
Ike is knowledge, Aloha well you know...?
And kokua is selfless giving/service.
My teacher explained, a righteous or 'Pono' person is one that is never so proud they won't teach or to proud to learn. Never to proud to share Aloha, never to proud to receive it. Never to proud to help another, never to proud to accept help from others.
Pretty simple yuh?
Well that threw a monkey wrench into my ability to understand and effect forgiveness in my life. How was I supposed to share my aloha with someone that has wronged me? My teacher said "Look if you come to my house and I offer hospitality yet you steal from me while there. I know you did it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, if I see you in town I will share aloha. However if you show up at the mouth of my driveway looking for hospitality I will simply speak (with aloha) too you on the street, but you will most likely not be getting any closer to my house than the public road."
He said "Remember, you must forgive, you must share aloha, knowledge and selfless service. However forgiveness does not mean you have to let it be done too you again!"
"First time you wrong me, shame on you... the second time, shame on me."
It took years (LOL 15 or so and counting) for this concept to start to sink in and take effect in my life. I still have to work pretty hard at forgiving sometimes. But the knowledge that I can share and care for others, even those that have transgressed against me has become a powerful force in my life. I feel that my teacher and his helping me understand that forgiveness is our gift to our selves yet forgiveness doesn't intrinsically equate to submission in any way.
In closing I want to say that my confusion or conflict of forgiveness and pride seems to be quit prevalent amongst a lot of Christians I have spoken with. I have met gads of Christians that have a hard time understanding how to blend forgiveness with the "eye for an eye..." concept. I think that the issue arises in the misconception that forgiveness equates with submission.
~~~~~~~~
One of my best friends in Hawaii was once attacked by an aggressive drunk at a wedding reception. I watched as my friend tried unsuccessfully to diffuse the aggression. The aggressor went for it and started to irrationally throw blows. My friend wound up on the guy's chest after he knocked out the aggressor with a choke hold. Before the guy came to, my friend asked me to get two fresh cups of beer from the keg. As the aggressor came around my friend explained "Dear Bruddah, I have two cold beers. You have two choices."
I was amazed at the aloha and forgiveness displayed by my friend. He never once showed anger or retaliation. He simply neutralized the physical threat and then managed to address the emotional negativity with nothing but understanding, forgiveness and aloha!
Granted that's a pretty base if not crass example, yet none the less was/is quite a powerful experience/memory for me.
~~~~~~~~
Saaaweeeee eeee eeeet
forgiveness
Sweeter than honey, sweeter than wine
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gonzo chemist
climber
a crucible
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Mar 30, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
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Science is the dominant paradigm, but has overreached. It can only function in tightly controlled environments. It has replaced dualistic god\ devil with a dualistic Truth\untruth (based on materialism).
Binks,
Science has nothing to do with "truth" or "untruth." That's covered well enough in theology. Scientific inquiry is the search for FACT.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Great Posts Chief and Bum
Since this is an old thread, my thoughts on forgiveness are detailed in the original post.
Pate wrote
I love your posts and respect you big tine man, but I am going to have to emphatically state that acceptance and forgiveness are two entirely different beasts. Acceptance deals with the present and future whereas forgiveness dwells in the past . That's the most basic difference, but check the definitions, there are many, many more.
They are not entirely different although there are distinctions. Forgiveness only happens in the present, whenever that is. When you can accept what happened, without creating a division or holding an emotional story, that's a level of forgiveness. Acceptance is a level of being free from from negativity about something.
But of course people use words differently.
Just to note that in the OP and in posts above, Forgiveness has nothing to do with letting people back in our life, trusting them with important things, or feeling that they have changed.
It's just discharging the poison negativity about something or someone that we hold within us.
Who ever needs it?
People who actually subconsciously relish being angry and resentful. It also gives power over another to withhold forgiveness. It sounds harsh but its super common. We all have some negativity that we enjoy chewing on, just like complaining work talk.
Peace
Karl
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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Scientific inquiry is the search for FACT.
There are no facts, only stronger or weaker probabilities. And there are plenty of cracks in the cement, once you know where to look.
On that note Atheism is the same as theism, it's just the opposite side of the coin. We like to define things by their opposites, but what if there really aren't any? Bohr said "the opposite of a great truth is another great truth."
I prefer indeterminacy and probability. Not agnosticism, but I'm willing to believe both at the same time. That god will probably exist if I observe him, but might not if I don't. New physics in a way, if you will.
TrundleBum, I like your perspective. However even if God does not throw people into hell, he created the system that allows it to happen (if you believe in it). So in there lies plenty of philosophical quandary.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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Just wanted to pop in and say...
I even forgive Cosmic for my new nic' name.
But then how could I knott ?
It's concise unlike me.
Pate you'll get a kick out of it ;)
(toungue in cheek):
Thankz a lot Cosmic. Now half of my immediate tribe are calling me...
'PUNCHLINE'
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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re: last 1/2 dozen posts.
PUNCHLINE
"forgiveness has nothing to do with not letting it be done too you again"
(or for that matter in the first place)
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 30, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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PUNCHLINE
Forgiveness although being intrinsic to some religions and philosophies...
religion is not intrinsic to forgiveness!
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 30, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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forgiveness and conciliation are total bs suggestions to anybody whom is still seeking to find refuge or sanctuary space fully buffered then insulated from ongoing physical violence, threat of physical violence
or its unrecognised companion, extremist emotional abuse
That's why I posted this:
...I think you have got to have a discriminating faculty and let bastards be bastards and let those that ought to be hit in the jaw get it. In fact, I have a list. If anybody has a working guillotine, I’d be glad to give them my list.
When I look
in the faces of my enemies
it makes me proud.
-Joseph Campbell
Like or not, some people deserve a punch in the face or worse. After that's taken care "forgiveness" can be more philosophical.
Edit: Looks like the person I quoted deleted their post. Point remains though.
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