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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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Would this be a good time and place to post some pictures of rainbows and kittens and puppies and little kids and stuff?
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Greg R
Trad climber
Castle Rock CO
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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All I see in those pictures is little boys and their toys.
"Kaboooom!"
Sad.
I like this picture better.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:17pm PT
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Ahh, how I love being a centerist in california - I get excuses to hate both the far left and the far right.
Minerals, think it will hit 200 by tomorrow?
Russ, I'm with you on your 29 palms reporting.
SteveW, I think my issue with your argument (well the discussion we were having) is more in your word choice. Uninhabitable isn't the case. And give me a break on the utilities, hospitals, etc
(ever wandered around borneo or cambodia? not to mention columbia) - there are many 3rd world places much worse off where people still live, perhaps more satisfied than we do here in all of our glory. Sure living in a war zone would suck, but the place isn't uninhabitable. Now if you want to debate about the aftermath of the war, will it be better over there, worse, the same, etc that might be an interesting discussion. If you want to say the war is wrong (or right) and debate that fine, but go at the heart of your issue.
I will concede the life expectancy point though....But hey the US isn't in the top of that pack anymore.
ok until tomorrow...
happy hunting (sorry I couldn't resist)
kev
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jun 11, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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NavB
It's unfortunate--there have been way too many mistakes to study, say Vietnam, Haiti, Panama, oh, and how about our overthrow of the democratically elected prime minister in Iran in 1953? Guatamala, Nicaruagua, oh, my memory is faltering.
Oh yeah, the Bay of Pigs, the Tonkin Gulf, lemme see, I'm sure I can conjure up more nightmares of our wonderful administrations, from Eisenhower on.
Oh, and I feel much safer that we've farmed out a large percentage of our security to and intelligence to cowboys like
blackwater, dyncorp, and others. Much much safer.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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Some fool said, "El Cap 1, Bluering 0
Got your ass handed to you, ya' paper tiger."
I wanna how my ass was handed to me.
And ElCap, the only way you respect my opinion in military matters is if I serve? Does it matter where or how I serve? Does it have to be combat for my opinion to be valid?
I'm just asking where you're comin' from.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:46am PT
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Those photos and these type topics on an CLIMBERS' internet forum are a high quality statement of our times. Love it. Thanks for this one.
It is year 2008. Enjoy the wars. There are more to come, on schedule.
The humans remain deep in the intellectual dark ages, because even the climbers who could so easily learn the lessons offered by the mountains, cannot figure out how to ask the most basic QUESTIONS of their words and actions.
The climbers who say they oppose the obviously illogical wars support their national climbing organization that supports the Park Service $200 tax on the RIGHT to walk (climb) on public land (Denali), etceteras, going to the Treasury, and vote for the DemocanRepublicrat Regime that keeps funding the wars with tax money.
They could not identify a contradiction in their own actions if you handed them a dictionary and pointed to these words. And asking a question of a contradiction is vastly beyond their intellectual ability. When you get a society that dumbed-down, starting wars is a comparatively admirable trait.
The knuckle dragging military dolts who relish in blowing apart kids, based on the usual lies, might at least eventually learn from their abject stupidity, while the peace advocates who could have peace within a week will die of old age before they figure out that the knowledge of the process is learned by asking questions of their prior failures.
Best comedy on the rock.
DougBuchanan.com
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:38am PT
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Useful info....
One of the anti-war folks herein mentioned the word, "shame".
Easy to verify this...
The first result of a normal human mind adopting the use of, or acquiring the perception of, institutional power, is the loss of the synaptic chemicals or neuron routing that identify shame, or the recognition of a damaging contradiction created by the same mind.
Wars, lying politicians, everything done by lawyers, Park Service rangers, and all other institutionally effected damaging contradictions could not otherwise exist.
PTSD and many such mental frustrations (on a gradient) are nothing more than the human mind attempting to synthesize significant contradicting data through neuron routings that cannot be re-activated with common data, by design, and thus compound self-damaging contradictions faster than circumstances can mitigate.
Amusingly, military and other government doctors and psych's cannot effect or explain the easy solution for PTSD because their own institutions create the contradictions that their own minds cannot identify or resolve or they would have already abandoned their institutions. And the minds of military chaps (victims of government) were taught to recognize nothing outside institutions.
An astute reader might recognize in the above why no institutionally effected contradictions can ever be resolved by any institution, but can be by an independent mind having learned the lessons taught by the mountains which function with humans in regard to flawless individual logic, void of any possible persuasion by even the most powerful human institutions.
So did you want to kick ass like some mental midget school yard bully who might never grow out of his illusion of power, or learn knowledge useful for therefore unlimited adventures?
Your choice will be appreciated by those enjoying the comedy.
DougBuchanan.com
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 12, 2008 - 07:10am PT
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There will always be people who, like the OP, think that other people will fold, break and run away if we just bomb them enough, torture them enough, abduct and imprison them enough or invade and occupy their country and steal what is theirs.
Because cowards always believe that other men are cowards too.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 12, 2008 - 08:41am PT
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So Minerals, did you start this thread in order to get up some peoples' (liberals) noses? Sort of infantile, isn't it?
You must be bored with a lot of time on your hands to post all of that.
Sigh, I wish I was on the dole with time and money to spend.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:02am PT
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Whatever makes your little willy tingle Minerals...
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:15am PT
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Minerals. nice Post! Love those war hero's.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Yo Doug,
You stated somthing about how this troubles you '...on a CLIMBERS' forum...' If you really felt that way then why did you espouse a different view on Chris Mac's annual thread about OT posts? Hmmm seems a little wishy-washy to me!
Ahh inconsistency is the hallmark of BS though.
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toomey
climber
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
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bluering: "i wanna know how my ass was handed to me"
Her'es how:
El Cap sez to you: "I didn't have to watch videos to pretend I know something about it."
you don't have to have served in the military to be respected for your opinion.
unless you come off like some video game warrior or mall ninja.
unless you are reckless with the lives of those real soldiers you say you support.
In texas we have a saying: Big Hat, No Cattle.
You come off like that.
thanks again for consdiring to serve.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 12, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Yo Kev
You asked aboout uninhabitability.
Consider the tons of depleted uranium spewed everywhere. If that and poison water isn't a problem for you then I suggest you and your family move there. Plenty of cheap land for
redevelopment.
Oh I am sure for you that DU is only problematic when it shows up as Gulf War Syndrome in OUR boys and GIRLS.
What a tool!
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L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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"Or how about the countless Iraqi women murdered by their brothers every year because they dishonored their fathers by allowing themselves to be raped. This continues no matter who is running the country. It's cultural.
I'm not saying we're perfect, or that we even should be over there, but we are better than terrorists."
It's interesting Kris that you only take offense with one line in my post--my opinion that we've become the terrorists in Iraq.
You don't argue about the murdered men, women and children, the families torn apart for all time, the mutilated bodies that are still breathing, the homes obliterated, the mom-n-pop businesses destroyed, the quality of life reduced to a horror show, or refuge camps and slow death by starvation and/or disease.
You pointed out that terrorists attach bombs to children and then blow them up, which is a truly heinous act--I absolutely agree. How many times has this happened? 10? 20? 30? And the media sensationalizes each and everyone of them, because it is horrible.
Do you have any idea how many of those cellphone bombs would have to be detonated to get into the realm of child-deaths that our weaponry has inflicted? I'm thinking it would take more than 30, more than 100, more than 1000. A lot more.
Your post makes it clear you despise certain aspects of the culture in Iraq, and I totally agree with you there. Any sort of human or animal abuse is repugnant to me, as it should be to any compassionate person, be they well-educated or not, be they from the USA or not.
But to endorse the slaughter in Iraq as a way of wiping out that cultural barbarianism is not a rational response.
First of all, it isn't going to work that way. Those sorts of changes have to come from within the country itself, brought about by people who see the wrongness of it. Imagine if Canada were a military Super Power, and it decided to invade the United States to wipe out incest (we have a regrettedly high incident rate of that horror everywhere), or the prostitition slave-trade. I mean, seriously, how ludicrous would that be?
We're so focused on clawing the eyelash out of the rest of the world's eye, and we have all this putrid stuff blinding our own. You suggest looking at Iraq's location so "the light might go on" about Bushco's plans. Well, I suggest you look at who's making money on this war...perhaps your own light needs a flick.
And Bluering--Shame on you for pulling that anti-Marine card! That is so beneath someone we all consider a friend.
Not a person here has attacked the men and women carrying out their orders in that gawdawful conflict--any sane person knows the Marines do what they're told to do, by the Commander in Chief and his power-crazed handlers. The Marines are a group of incredibly patriotic Americans who are simply cogs in the wheel of destruction.
It's the monsters driving the bus and bleeding the American public that need to be outed and impeached/prosecuted/sent to prison where they can wear orange jumpsuits and become Billy Bob's girlfriend.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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Stirring the pot more,....
Back at you Philo,
'tons of depleted uranium...' HMMMMM got a source on that.
Tons seems like an awful lot to me. How do you prove that.
Can you support that claim with reliable unbiased sources???
I'm sorry - it's just that all this unsupportable spray and speculative BS grows annoying. Sorry but I must play devils advocate. Don't make statements that you cannot backup. Please site source for your claims. I'm not saying it is or isn't happening, but I'm tired of the BS unsupported arguments.
Also aren't you taking this a bit seriously, name calling and all. It is really amusing to be called a tool though.
And for all of you who know me, who knew I had sooo much troll potential :) Hell it looks like I'll manage to climb 4 of 7 days (outside) this week and still have time to troll!
smiles
kev
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jun 12, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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^^^
that is an example of an American not wanting to believe what America has done, is doing.
"TONS" is NOTHING
do you have any idea how much weaponry and amunition we have deployed to iraq since 2003?
then go back and include what was used in the 1st gulf war-
you have a problem w/ "TONS"?
i say you have tons of unused brain cells pal
but it's really not your fault-
you are like all of us to some degree-
you cannot conceptualize what is going on, what has and what will go on, because we do not fight our wars on our own front lawns, and we only understand what is on tv...
"TONS"?
tons is nothing kev, nothing at all.
do some googling of your own and learn what you are paying for, rather than object that another poster doesn't document the obvious.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:13pm PT
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" ...But to endorse the slaughter in Iraq as a way of wiping out that cultural barbarianism is not a rational response... "
Actually, Laura, I was quite careful not to endorse the slaughter in Iraq. I have stood against this war since the very first hints by Bushco that it was in the works. And I am no fan of GWB and his crackpots who have been so poorly running the show for 8 long years.
I still think we are better than terrorists though, and our Supreme Court re-affirmed my feelings on that issue yesterday.
Also, I appreciate your statement of respect for our military folks. Of course then you must understand that our troops do not as a rule engage in the kind of wholesale murder of innocents which the terrorists do as a policy?
10, 20, 30 suicide bombings? Where do you get your numbers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003
" ...Determining the exact number of suicide bomber attacks in Iraq is a nearly impossible task. Attacks are so frequent that the global media no longer bother to investigate each attack.... " etc...
Just a friendly disagreemnent - I am not into internet flaming. Hope you are well, Kris.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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Bluering said: Did you watch any video as to how much attention we pay to killing the target and not inflicting collateral damage?
Exactly, I completely agree. Now think this through, if you please. We are perhaps waging the most "accurate" warfare ever waged, and yet the horrors that we produce are horrendous. So, okay, such is war, there's simply no getting around it.
The conclusion I draw from this is simple. We should enter into war only as an absolute last resort.
The fact that the Bush administration did exactly the opposite in Iraq is their biggest crime against the USA and the world.
GO
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kev
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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Matt you still don't get my point!
Where can you find accurate scientific data to support your claim. HAHAHA you said to use google! So I did and look at this little gem below. See you can find claims supporting most things on the web. I'm just trying to urge the right and left wing ranters out there to actually state things that they can support. And even better support with unbiased sources. I am not stating that the below is or isn't unbiased just calling you on your google BS.
"What do Other Organizations Say About the Health Effects of DU?
Scientific agencies outside the DoD and the VA have reviewed the evidence and determined that DU posed minimal risk to human health. The Department of Health and Human Services’ Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, the RAND Corporation, the Institute of Medicine, the United Kingdom Royal Society, the European Commission, and the World Health Organization have all completed studies and concluded that there is no evidence that DU causes cancer.
NATO reported no relationship between exposure to DU in Europe and health problems potentially attributable to radioactivity. The organization stated:
*
To date, none of the nations or international organizations has reported finding any indication that would suggest a current threat to human health caused by radioactivity at any of the sites tested. http://www.nato.int/du/docu/d010523e.htm
The United Kingdom has stated that there is no reliable scientific or medical evidence to link DU with ill health of veterans of conflict in either the Persian Gulf or Balkans, or of people living in these regions. Many independent reports have been published and have failed to detect a relationship between DU exposure and illness, and none has found widespread DU contamination sufficient to impact the health of the general population or deployed personnel. http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/HealthandSafety/DepletedUranium/DepletedUraniumAndHealth.htm
In a 1999 study conducted by the RAND Corporation, the authors stated: “(N)o evidence is documented in the literature of cancer or any other negative health effect related to the radiation received from exposure to depleted or natural uranium, whether inhaled or ingested, even at very high doses.”"
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