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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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nb3000, WTC 7 did not just suffer from vibration, it was directly struck by the debris from a collapsing 110 story building. It was missing 10 stories from one of it's corner. First responders said portions were bulging and leaning, even before the fires grew.
And the collapsing WTC 7 severely damaged 2 other buildings. Hardly a neat collapse into it's own footprint.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:11pm PT
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There is also video out there that shows what appear to be squibs going off. Scary, really.
I don't really have any thoughts on the subject of 9/11 and whether or not it as an "inside job", but there are some pretty scary things out there. Regardless, it's pretty apparent that the government lied to us and hid some things concerning the event.
I guess, after reading all of this, it seems to me that Bush and Cheney are rap bolters!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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BenC - THREE tours.
Thank you for your service. I hope you are home for good with all your limbs and feeling safe and secure.
It seems to me that our country has asked for an awfully large sacrifice from it's soldiers with the multiple tours, and I have to wonder how the level compares with wars and other actions in the past.
On a tangent:
My sister's husband joined the National Guard many years ago(20?) to gain experience flying helicopters. He wanted to be a pilot and has worked as a pilot. Right now he's in Columbia on a mission, and has spent the last few years being deployed all over the place. I guess the enlisted soldiers are over in the ME.
The citizenry of the US is fairly oblivious to the fact that guys in their 40's, who joined the Guard and Reserve for a little training and extra cash are being sent to do these jobs.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 06:18pm PT
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Nefarius, substitute "some things" with "practically everything" and you are prolly closer to the mark.
Steel (recycled to China ASAP)
Black Boxes
Intact PAPER passport from "terrorist"
etc...
Pick a topic on 9/11 and there is barely anything that everyone agrees upon.
Except 3,000+ people died, and 3 buildings were leveled by two airliners.
edit: If 9/11 was a crime, why wasn't the area treated as thus ? Rescue was more in the lines of body recovery, so life was not at stake to totally eff-up and destroy the crime scene (read: evidence).
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:08pm PT
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ok, i didn't "berate" anyone for believing everything they read (although that would be a valid criticism); i simply pointed out that being "well-read" does not make one an expert or give one the intellectual high ground...i do believe that what one reads is relevant, too...but if you want to support the well-read theory...i guarantee that the pope has read more, and more deeply, than all of STers combined...does that mean we should accept as true/fact everything he says?
ok, i'm not an engineer, but here it goes:
737 hits 90th floor; now, steel designed to hold 10 floors above is weakened and collapses under that weight; now, the weight of 10 floors crashes suddenly onto 89th floor; now the weight of 11 floors crashes suddently onto 88th floor; etc.--it ain't rocket science
mojede, maybe you forgot to read the expert testimony in the first (and failed) trade center bombing...engineers testified that the only way to bring down those buildings would be to fly a jetliner into them (gee, i wonder where the jihadis got their idea)
benc...the fbi was monitoring calls coming from outside the u.s. and from suspected or known members of terrorist organizations...if obl accidently dials my number, then i'd be pissed if the fbi wasn't aware of it and didn't investigate me until they were certain it was a wrong number...you think we've lost the moral high ground because we poured some water up the noses of three (3!) terrorists leaders and got information that saved hundreds if not thousands of lives...frankly, i think we hold the moral high ground equivalence of mt everest...i do know that we haven't been attacked since 9/11...the only way to tell for certain if we're "safer" is to change our tactics and see what happens, but i don't think that's a good enough reason to another put 3,000+ innocent lives at risk...and i hope you're not naive enough to think that everything we've been doing since 9/11 we've done alone--the world is helping us even if the leaders won't admit it
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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TIG,
"Existence can be proven. Non-existence can be disproved. It is as simple as that. "
Existence can be proven and dis-proven under the right circumstances.
Prove to me that god exists or that you love your grandparents.
And I mean actually prove it to me.
Not words, proof.
There does not exist a Porsche 935 DP Turbo in my garage.
Dis-prove that! (Since I'm not independently wealthy)
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
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bookworm, keep on keepin' on.
Baaaaaa !
edit: what does the "pancake theory" say about the 47 VERTICAL columns being reduced to scraps less than 50ish feet long?
Wait, like a stack of records falling, the vertical stuff stays VERTICAL.
Dam, when does my next issue of PM arrive--I've got to get sum egicatshun in me.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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?????????????????????
Not sure about the link, but I don't think that it is the definitive authority in this matter.
Check the 9/11 Commission Report. The facts start there.
locker style edit: The facts END there, as well. Cheers.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:02pm PT
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bookworm, I hope you're not expecting to change anyone's mind here.
I can't believe all of these questions are resurfacing at this point in time. What's funny is no matter what new evidence surfaces, everyone already has their mind made up what they believe. It's very interesting.
All I can say is, don't worry. My people will protect your people.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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Bookworm
I'm sorry if I've tried to push my thoughts on you.
Far be it for me to do that to anyone on this
site. It's a wonderful country, each of us can believe
in what we want.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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Uncle Doug, I understand your confusion about my statement.
Existence can be proven (not always), but it is possible.
Same for non-existence being disproved. If there was a 935 turbo or whatever car you mentioned in your driveway it would disprove the nonexistence of same in your driveway.
What is not possible is to disprove existence (ever) or prove nonexistence (ever).
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:39pm PT
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BenC
My regards to you also for having served 3 tours.
I have never questioned the bravery of our troops
or not supported them. I support them in wanting
to bring them all home out of harm's way, so they
could do the real defense of our nation if necessary.
I hope that you never have to go back into combat again.
As Karl Baba says here,
Peace.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
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I'm with steve, bookworm.
This topic re-emerges randomly and all sides have been heard ad nauseum.
I like to think the best, prepare for the worst, and realize that somewhere in there is truth, but rarely where I am at during that time.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 17, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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"...because we poured some water up the noses of three (3!) terrorists leaders and got information that saved hundreds if not thousands of lives"
I am fairly certain that's an inaccurate statement. There's a story in this week's Village Voice, about a new book out(I haven't the title offhand), written by a guy who went to Pakistan looking to gain insight on his Muslim heritage.
He was stopped at a border crossing and arrested, detained and torture first in Afghanistan and then in Guantanamo Bay. FOR FIVE YEARS. Waterboarded, suspended from the ceiling in his cage for 5 and 6 hours at a time, electric shock to his feet.
No criminal charges ever levied, and he was told by some of the guards that our gov. paid a bounty for "terrorists" in Pakistan.... Supposedly, he was sold for $3,000.
EDIT: Here's the online story: http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0816,our-very-own-axis-of-evil,411810,4.html
The author is Murat Kurnaz. His book is "Five Years of My Life: An Innocent Man in Guantánamo."
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BenC
climber
Ithaca, Ny
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:11pm PT
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bookworm,
I apologize berate was too strong of a word, but my point is thus, as far as I know you aren't a high level CIA/NSA spook leaking us info therefor you're statements are only opinion and nothing else. I wasn't supporting the well read theory, merely ponting out you have to get your information from somewhere be it internet, cable news or print. All of these have some bias one way or the other, bet it left, right , up or down.
Back to the wiretapping thing, the big deal isn't the intent, it's the blanket data mining, something expressly forbidden by FISA. So it doesn't matter why Bush ordered it, it is illegal.
And yes the FBI stated it was only looking for incoming foriegn calls, however do a quick google for FBI privacy violation.
And no we haven't lost the moral high ground for "pouring water up some terrorist's nose", we lost it by having our "leaders" constanly lie about it, by ignoring treaty's we are sworn to uphold, by entering into a needless conflict under false pretense, by strongarming allies so they'll comply, by creating an atmosphere of hatred and fear to feed politics.
I don't think 9/11 was a conspiracy but I'm sick of it being used as a tool to futher policy and fuel elections.
Happi, SteveW - thanks, I am home for good, got my discharge from the IRR two weeks ago.
We climbed together last fall happi, I belive it was nice crack climb in the trapps?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Yes, Ben - I remember you! Small world after all!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:25pm PT
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Doing a little bit of Googling on that book I mentioned a few posts above, I came across this website...
http://www.cageprisoners.com
It is about the various prisons and prisoners and related items for the "War on Terror."
I was shocked to see just how many different sites are being used to warehouse suspected people. There are centers throughout the world, and they are classified by continent and country(under the "Prisons" page.
Holy sh#t, is about I can say. I'll leave it to anyone who cares to peruse the site to come to their own conclusions.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Apr 17, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Interesting quote from Ron Paul -
“The truth is that Iran, like Iraq, is a third-world nation without a significant military. Nothing in history hints that she is likely to invade a neighboring country, let alone America or Israel. I am concerned, however, that a contrived Gulf of Tonkin-type incident may occur to gain popular support for an attack on Iran.”
-Ron Paul
False flag ops are as old as history. I wouldn't bet against another one in the near future.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 18, 2008 - 02:03am PT
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The conspiracy to get us into the Iraq war under false pretense is more easily proven and just as damning as any potential conspiracy to let 9-11 happen. We are living under a criminal adminsitration.
As for 9-11, i think the physical evidence regarding the pentagon and the towers are distractions from what an inquiry can easily demonstrate, that the Government has been lying to us about 9-11 all along. What about the war games in action on 9-11? The 100,000 bucks wired to Mohammed Atta by the Pakistani ISI dude that was later meeting with highest administration folks on 9-11 itself? Follow the money.
Peace
Karl
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