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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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Ihateplastic- They are separate arches. The description of the So. Face route in the old guide was/is in error.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Marty, it wasn't rap-bolted for safety. The assumptions here are mind-boggling. It is not a sport climb. Bolts on the upper face were put in on rappel so that the route would be quality and the bolts would be in the right places.
You know, I've been reading a lot of Cormac McCarthy lately, and one thing I appreciate is that the protagonists, ranch hands and cowboys, only share their opinions based on first hand experience. They don't comment on anything they don't have first hand proof of. It's very noble, and as a consequence, their words have actual weight.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
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..."But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and commitment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the future's capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present -- by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today.
..."And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style - - a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never again be "last great problems" but only "next great problems." - Doug Robinson, The Whole Natural Art of Protection
Of course Doug once told me, "Be careful of what you read."
 ec
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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Different arch? Well, okay... there are two big ones back there. For the record I was referring to Galen's comments in an old AAJ as to location.
While it may be true there are only four people who have intimate details of the route that does not change the manner in which it was done. It may well be a fantastic route with fantastic rock and fantastic leads and fantastic anchors where, "You could climb anywhere up that wall! 5.10c--no more than .10c, dude!" (Sean Jones.)
On one point I wholeheartedly agree... let's get up there and repeat this route. Do the same with WOS. Then offer comment. If the routefinding and aid on WOS is stellar then let's all sing the praises of the FA team. If the second ascent team announces the 1/2-Dome route is stellar but could have been led ground up then we have the information we need to further the discussion.
I just hope this is not the start of an explosion of top rope big wall climbs...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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e.c. Did Doug ever tell you, Be careful of what you write.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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That wall has had only a couple of routes in the 40 years since Rowell and Harding went up and had to get rescued. And those couple of routes have each had only a few ascents.
It's not like folks are lining up to do ground up test pieces on that face. I bet this route doesn't see alot of traffic either. The climbing is hard and the approach is long. Most people just aren't that in to slabs. How many ascents/attempts has the much more accessible Hall of Mirrors seen?
One could argue that you should just have left the wall completely alone, but then one could argue that about any route that involves altering the rock, whether with pins or bolts on lead.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:20pm PT
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Klaus wrote: What a fukking hypocrite this Robinson is. Really a shame.
People and methods change...even in climbing. How fukking boring would it be if it didn't.
You don't seem so concern with the rock as to the style. El Cap has been beaten into submission a million times with a lot more damage.
Who really is the hypocrite??
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 30, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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Bob d'antonio,..."because your blip is more romantic than realistic"...thank you for clarifying.
I agree, it is... but then, I was generalizing over the principles we try to operate by.
The reality is indeed...a matter of opinion, as this whole vociferous discussion testifies.
At the end of the day, I repeat, there are no Rights and Wrongs, only Choices.
Because, Rights and Wrongs belong to words, the domain of the ego.
Whereas, Choices belong to actions, the domain of the spirit.
Words, like egos, fade easily. Actions, like the spirit, tend to endure.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:00pm PT
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Billygoat, ten acres today, nine tommorrow, then eight. In 30 years time it could all be banged out huh? Then there will be zero real estate back there. Nothing for the climbers of that day who will be climbing at levels we can't even imagine. Climbing as a sport BTW, will still be in its infancy.
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billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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My point was that there is plenty of rock up there and in general for routes of all styles. And there still is. If you don't like what's up there, go do something that you do like.
I do, however, have one concern. As I understood it, they maintained the style of Southern Belle, and expanded the possibilities by freeing (ground up) what had originally been aided. The stuff that was bolted on rap was new territory, ya? I would like some clarification about that, as I do think there is a significant difference between establishing a piece of art (a route) in one's own style and trying to alter a previously established route to conform to one's own desires.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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"Bottom line- until YOU have done the route, it is all just conjecture."
What's "just conjecture?" It's not just conjecture per the methods used on the Half Dome climb. The "just conjecture" angle implies that if only I had climbed this route I wouldn't be concerned with how it was established. This thread is about whether the means actually mean anything or whether they are just meaningless abstractions that become moot or needless providing the route is a Jim Dandy or is otherwise technically out there.
I'm sure the route is a great one - that's not what folks are arguing about.
JL
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio)
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Mar 30, 2008 - 06:02pm PT
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Why is rapping down a route to ensure you can link pitches free and with minimal bolting WORSE than climbing a route ground up, finding out the features don't link and A) Having the route not top out or B) Drilling bolt ladders to "connect the features"
Why is reducing impact while improving quality viewed with such disdain? Because it reduced the "adventure" of the first ascent?
Would a ground up route to nowhere receive more respect and accolades? Why should it?
Frankly, in this day and age of heightened scrutiny of climbers and their impact on the land it's IRRESPONSIBLE to not consider what the final product will be.
The South Face always pops up on the radar every few years with a VERY rare follow up ascent of a route or a new route established. It's arguably one of the least traveled pieces of amazing stone around.
As stated above, your beliefs affect what offends you. I my case, I believe in the ENJOYMENT of climbing. Some days that involves adventurous run-outs on bold ground-up routes. Some days that involves clipping bolts up a beautiful 50m tufa strewn wall. I climb the whole bell curve of styles in the rock climbing world.
On the far left of my bell curve is the ground up on-sight solo. As we move right we get ground ascents on gear, ground up ascents with gear and bolts from a stance etc et. The farther right we go the more common the ascent style. At the far right would be rap cleaned, rap grid-bolting low style glued routes (or something therein). The climbing community typically has a "does not tolerate" policy on the right hand side and correctly so. You start grid bolting crap and I'll be one of the first in line with my crowbar. However, I WILL argue when the cutoff on the curve starts greatly favoring ethics over aesthetics.
I don't see the point in criticizing a climb that will still take a great deal of strength, commitment, courage and fortitude to complete just because the FAists "looked at it ahead of time". Is it a Southern Belle? No - and that route still remains as do the ethics in which it was put up (Bold ascents seem to be increasing recently in fact).
Karl made the point that the blankness of slabs introduces ethics other features do not inherently have. As always, climbing's history is not nearly as "pure" as people make it out to be and as always, we continue to debate on how that bell curve of pure-ness should be distributed. In this case I think the curve has remained un-changed.
Now pass be another beer as I go back to the main forum...
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Burt Bronson
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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MEN, BURT BRONSON HERE.
I HAVE HANDLED THIS ISSUE. ALL BOLTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED AND ALL HOLES HAVE BEEN PATCHED. A TOTAL OF 1137 BOLTS WERE REMOVED. THE ROUTE HAS NOT BEEN ERASED IN TOTAL, HOWEVER. WHILE CLIMBING AND CLEANING, MY PARTNER AND I WERE ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY FREE THE ROUTE ON ALL NATURAL GEAR WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE #2 AND TWO #1 COPPER HEADS WHICH WERE NECESSARY FOR THE PENDULUM OUT ONTO THE FACE.
WE BELIEVE THE ROUTE TO BE 'JUST OK'. WE THOUGHT SOUTHERN BELLE TO BE A MUCH BETTER ROUTE.
SINCERELY,
BURT BRONSON
THE LAST BASTION OF THE TRUE MAN CLIMBER
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:23pm PT
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"Doug Robinson isn't some kinda bad boy (like Harding) is he?"
A couple of years ago, on movingoverstone.com, DR was advertising his guide service and had an offer that said something to the effect of:
"Be part of a first ascent on Charlotte Dome. For a fee you can join us while we put up a new route."
As one who enjoys finding and climbing new routes, and had scoped a few lines on Charlotte this made me want to puke, now he's rap bolting Half Dome...what next?
Slander sucks but if you make yourself high visibilty, then it goes with the territory.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Is this Sean on the route?
Photo from: (seanjonesclimbing.com)
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:54pm PT
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It matters that it doesn't matter.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:25pm PT
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Werner, given the colors, that photo is probably not on Half Dome - more likely on one of the crags at Shuteye Ridge.
[Edit: Werner checked and it is Half Dome - see his post below]
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Loomis
climber
Lat/Lon: 35.64 -117.66
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Mar 30, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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I could be wrong, but it looks a little tall for Shuteye.
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