Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 12:55am PT
|
LEB I'll be honest, I feel like you're just parroting stuff you heard pundits say. What programs specifically? And you do realize that the Cap Gains tax is set to go up when the Bush tax cuts expire, right?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 01:09am PT
|
HDDJ, It is unlikely she will realize this is what is being talked about.
She wants her 300 dollar a year tax cut and she doesn't care how many wars she has to pay for to get it.
And thats all folks.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 01:29am PT
|
I should also add.....the military can not be big enough as far as you're concerned, but violence is never the answer and you're worried about how to pay for unnamed social programs? You do realize that all of the Bush tax cuts, and all of the economic stimulus package (which is horrifyingly bipartisan) is financed with debt. Essentially you, a childless woman, are saddling the rest of our children with debt to pay for a tax cuts that we can't afford.
Fiscal responsibility means paying for the things you buy, not unlimited tax cuts.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 12:20pm PT
|
“I thought Barack Obama’s speech was strong, thoughtful and important. Rather beautifully, it was a speech to think to, not clap to. It was clear that’s what he wanted and this is rare…
[The pundits] praised it, and in the biggest compliment, cable news shows came out of the speech not with jokes or jaded insiderism, but with thought. They started talking, pundits left and right, black and white, about what they’d experienced of race in America. It was kind of wonderful. I thought, Go America, go, go...”
NPR? O’bama spokesperson? The Nation magazine?
Nope.
Peggy Noonan, longtime republican operative and speechwriter for Ronald Reagan, in today’s Wall Street Journal.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
|
Yep, a lot off pundits loved it. I thought it was quite good also. Unfortunately for Obama, the mass of the great unwashed were not as enthused; and he has taken a negative hit. The question is, can he get back to where he was before the dust-up about his nutty pastor? All that counts in the end is how the voters mark their ballots, not what the pundits say.
|
|
hannaht
climber
Madison, WI
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
|
In response to LEB's continued assertions that Obama joined Trinity for political reasons:
"That desire for a more challenging faith helps explain the appeal of Trinity, despite its potential for controversy. The church, which has ministered to poor South Side families and Oprah Winfrey alike, isn't fringe, but neither is it a likely home for someone plotting a political career in Chicago. 'If you're black and you're trying to get ahead in politics, you're not going to join Trinity,' says Dwight Hopkins, a Trinity member who is also a professor at U. of C.'s Divinity School. 'Not because it's radical — it isn't radical in its context. But it would be safer to join a North Side ecumenical church — the sort of place where people are quiet. They stand up, sit down, listen and leave.'"
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1723990-2,00.html
I suppose it's still up for argument, but at least I have a source to cite.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 05:00pm PT
|
My props. We have become so used to baseless slander some can't remember the last time they saw a source quoted.
Yet again we head off into the bushes debating emotions and perceptions so we do not have to speak to the real issues. Obama responded and explained, pretty clearly I thought, his relationship to that church. Not much more can be said. It is simply up to each voter to make their personal finding on the matter.
But he also addressed the issue of the public education system. It is a huge problem and while discussion of it does not give one the emotional buzz gotten from discussing perceptions, it is central to the future success of our country. I have a take on it and would appreciate reactions.
When I went through school I came away with something much more lasting than just exposure to geography and math. What I saw were teachers who had a long term goal and the determination to follow it through. They were in control. Whatever else was on my mind, I was first of all going to learn. Those who challenged her management of the classroom were set right, on the spot, and for all to see. Being just a kid I was looking for role models if you will. What I saw was that a person puts value into their life through determination to do what is felt needed and to follow through no matter the barriers. Putting meaning into life requires long term commitment along with a healthy dose of courage.
My mother would not let kids back away. She was often asked why she put so much extra effort into the kids who did not want to learn. She said, “ If they do not learn some algebra they will be limited for the rest of their lives.” As to why she was solely responsible for changing the trajectory of their lives, she said, “If not me, then who?” These are direct quotes.
I try to imagine whether I could have learned the lesson I did had the teacher control over neither presentation of the material, nor class order. The teacher as a bureaucrat. I tend to doubt it. No, I very much doubt it.
Sixty years ago education in 100,000 different places, each having very different people was not micromanaged out of Washington nor were decisions filtered through a teacher’s union. Neither was needed. If a kid was presenting a problem that could be handled no other way, the parent could be told this in front of all the other parent stakeholders. And if a parent had a problem with a teacher, and there was no better way to handle it, a parent could raise the issue in front of everyone. Now here was the really important part. The money that supported all of this did not first go to Washington and then come back , somehow. You went to a meeting and talked directly to the people who were paying for it all.
Over the last fifty years power and money has been flowing to Washington for whatever reasons. Some good, some bad I would guess. The teacher’s ability to lead their charges has been gutted. If we want to rebuild, seems to me we have, somehow, to reverse this fifty year old process. The crux? The money has to cease going to Washington.This has been fought for years and a number of approaches such as charter schools have arisen.
My only contribution to this long hard debate? The thing I think we have ignored?
The approach to life a child forms is badly damaged by seeing teachers who are helpless.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
|
There was quite a good article in the March 2008 Atlantic, on the future of U.S. public schools. Essentially suggesting that many middle class/income families were now being forced into sending their children to public schools, and that this will cause change for the better.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/kozol
So as not to entirely abstain from the Saturday night slander, does LEB = Hæres Tuolongue? :-)
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
|
Hey Woody,
Can you lay off the RNC spin for even a minute? The whole point of this thread was your attempt to dismiss the speech as unconvincing. I pointed out that even a revered Republican advisor to the sainted Ronald Reagan thought the speech remarkable. Your response? Pundits liked it, but not the unwashed masses. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Give some credit where it is due. In an incredible piece of political jujitsu, Obama turned a wave of negative news stories into a wave of positive ones, through the sheer force of his rhetoric. What a contrast to the rhetorical skills of our current president!
Rick
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 22, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
|
Lois
You are just yapping .....
Now in order to judge someone such as Obama, you need to give him the job and then make your decision.
Yapping all day and night does not amount to anything except.
ZERO
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 11:04pm PT
|
Rick,
I'm not a Rep. and don't care for McCain. Further, I'm not throwing out Rep. spin. I track right wing, left wing and middle road sites to get a flavor for what's going on across the board. At the moment Obama has bounced back vis a vis Hillary, but both trail McCain by small margins. Get a grip; I've got no favorites in this race; although, Vampira is beginning to give me the shivers.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2008 - 12:03am PT
|
Oh Lois,
This is an analogy,
You're a terrible climber, you got no balls, you need protection every 3 feet.
You need to run it out babe, a long nice run-out to a rest and and then put in some pro. Feel that adrenalene?
Maybe free solo and day or so.
C'mon babe cut loose ........ vote Obama, I know you can do it .....
Hahahaha
|
|
Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2008 - 12:32am PT
|
leb-U R so full of sh#t. You can't possibly believe what your saying, voted for Bush (assumption-going out on a limb here), then accuse any of us for voting blindly. Get off your soapbox. Regarding liberation theology-do you know anything about it? If you did, then you may understand why a black man may go to this type of church. (here's a clue: it ain't like the KKK).
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2008 - 12:45am PT
|
Woody,
Sorry for questioning your motives. I don't like personal attacks and got carried away. I will try to keep the argument on the merits of the speech, and Obama , which I think are considerable.
Lois,
I think we have more than enough evidence to judge Obama's ability to lead the country. While president Bush led us into the Iraq war using what we now know were demonstrably false statements about WMD, the connection to Al Quada, and the cost of the war (which you may recall was supposed to be completely offset by increased oil production from Iraq), Obama made the correct choice to oppose the war. And this was when opposing the war was highly unpopular and risked attacks on one's patriotism. Bottom line? Obama's principled opposition to the costliest foreign policy blunder in the history of this country is more than enough evidence of his good judgment and ability to lead this country.
Rick
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2008 - 01:03am PT
|
Jstan,
The possible reasons for the decline of public education is an interesting topic, but I am not sure that the money flow through Washington is the primary reason. One explanation that sounds plausible to me is that when we were growing up, smart and capable women became teachers because that was the only opportunity avaiable. Today, women have many more opportunities than they did back then to become scientists, politicians, doctors,etc. and maybe the teaching profession has suffered as a result. Thinking back on my own experience in public schools, the best teachers were women. Food for thought.
Rick
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Mar 23, 2008 - 10:13am PT
|
...gushing, weeping, swooning and starey-eyed behavior.
LEB seems to have forgotten the Run up to the Bush presidency. And let's not forget the Reagan years.
The mind boggling adventures of Spurious George have allowed most people forget the vile and pernicious Reagan years (now playing in re-runs the world over). Ronnie set the stage that Georgie has been running amok in.
So many of LEB's statements are convoluted contradictions of herself in particular and reality in general.
I really wonder why so many of the ST keepers of the neo-con faith are so afraid of Barack Obama that they will invent and spread unfounded rumours and out of context 'spin' with the transparent intent to damage Barak Obama's image amoung the sheeple collective? They publically fret that Obama may not have enough experience.
They thought nothing of giving power to a man who's 'experience' included; Being an after thought of a powerful insider family with a long term penchant for political corruption and cronieism, a born again neo-con rehabeded drunk who was a military deserter and political hack and who (though every opportunity was handed to him on the proverbial silver platter) was an utter failure in every business he touched. He was the hipocritical and lack lustre govenor of death row central. And he was WHITE. Now THAT'S a resume'!
I quess Barak Obama just does not have enough 'experience' to be what GW lied about not being and that is (all hail the Beltway)a 'Washington Insider'.
I wonder if he may actually be a 'Unite-r' and not the 'Divide-r' that the 'Decide-r' also lied about not being.
Though the opposition will keep spinning 'dirty tricks' this flap over Barak Obama's pastor is a meaningless and deliberate diversion. By the mid Spring it will be less important to the sheeple collective than Paris Hilton.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
|
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=11549
This came out yesterday. Spin how you want, but Obama has, over all, taken a negative hit vis a vis his speech. He's up against Hillary; however, his negatives have grown over all. Race is now a significant factor in the campaign (It always was, and the pretense it wasn't now has faded away.) In my opinion, his relationship with his pastor has cost him dearly and will continue to do so. Irrespective as to his honesty about the issue, many people, though admiring his speech, aren't accepting his reasoning. Now that the race issue has come forward thanks to his radical pastor and Obama's long term association with him, he's going to have to carry this burden for the rest of the campaign; and it will hurt.
I think Obama's got the nomination in the bag; however, if Clinton fights to the bitter end and tears the Dems apart at the convention, McCain will benefit greatly from the perceived chaos among the Dems. He will further gain from disaffected Dems who will feel betrayed.
All in all, this is the most interesting presidential campaign in my life.
|
|
WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
|
Khanom,
Either you don't know how to read or you flip out the moment you believe someone is going to dare to say something negative about Obama. I said he was up relative to Hillary. So the hilarity is for me. If you can't do better than this, maybe you should find another subject to screw up. No wonder Lois has such difficulty dealing with some of you guys: you don't read; you don't think, ponder or reflect; you just react like a child who had a sucker ripped off. Maybe you should stay in the sandbox and let adults deal with the issue.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!