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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 14, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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x-cat...yes, Pete sets up the cleans quite conveniently...
However, one with such a *well-trained* eye as that of W.child should have had far MORE fun with the fact that there is a *scream aid* attached to the bolt...
But then such an expert eye would also have noticed that it isn't a bolt, its an original machine head rivit with a plate hanger...on a route where the bolts were snapping under bodyweight. :) :)
-Kate.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 14, 2007 - 09:35pm PT
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xtremecat:
2 issues with the hooks that are seperate.
#1, hook itself. Hook need to be low enough profile to not catch on EVERYTHING. No matter what, you will hook on stuff, but it's best to minimize it a bit (when I know I have to do some free moves I twist the whole arrangement to the outside of the knee and life is a bit better). The hook still has to be big enough to stick out past your kneepad and allow easy snagging of the ring,or you'll find yourself having to grab the ring to place it into the hook more than you'd like (you still will have to in the wind and in a lot of top ring moves). The hook would be be preferably straight down at an angle, and NOT a big arc'ed half circle. The ring will sit in the high point of the hook, so you want that high point as close to you as possible. Not a big deal, but worth paying attention to. Blunt is good to, as you WILL hook your partner occasionally, and it's best not to draw blood. My opinion is that a leeper logan hook is too small, while a cliffhanger is a bit too big, maybe 3/4-1" from the back of the hook to the tip?
#2, hook attachement. This is the PITA with most off the shelf hooks. You need the hook to stay in place despite high forces in a variety of angles as you go through high steps, traverses, overhangs, etc. Clearly in the pictures there are a variety of solutions that have been tried ranging from tight tubes made in the cuffs, a vertical slot(s) in the hook to pull the hook in tension, and even bolting the hook through the webbing. The point being that there isn't just one answer here, but you gotta make sure the hook stays pointing forward and is held very snugly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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When I saw the username "xtrmecat", I half expected some slim, svelte twenty-something feline climbing hottie ready to rip up the walls. So I confess I felt more than a little disappointed to read,
"I'm a dainty 245 at 6 foot tall with knees just about worn out. How do your knees feel after all day in these things while climbing on just one side of your leg?"
Clearly, xtrmecat is a Fine Figure of a Man, and uniquely qualified for life on the big wall owing to his keen eyesight and ability to feel empathy for his pitch cleaner, not to mention being a hella fine counterweight for space hauling. Dr. Piton is working hard towards achieving his stature, and with Christmas on its way, looks forward to "bulking up for the wall".
Bob, the Russkie cuffs actually provide a lot of stability and comfort, in the same way the downhill ski boots do. The hook tends to rotate to the inside of your knee because that gives you the straightest up-down orientation. This seems counter-intuitive, but let me assure you that because the cuff beneath your knee can rotate, there are no torsional stresses on your knee. It's just like standing in aiders, but with extra support. The things are extremely comfortable, and because your weight is spread out over your calf as well as onto the bottom of your feet, I believe your feet, legs and knees tire a lot less in Russian Aiders than when standing in regular aiders. You also feel hugely more in balance with your "knee" hooked into the rings - it's very stable and comfortable.
And any fool can be uncomfortable.
I have concerns with the double-width hook pictured above - I think the extra width would make it harder to fit into a ring, or force you to use bigger rings. [But I won't know for sure until I actually try the double hook]
I have used this type of single hook on Evan Freeman's cuffs [pictured in the post far above] and it worked fine, but I like the smooth, round and compact hooks the Trango models have. I agree your kneepad gets in the way a bit, so some may prefer a bigger hook.
Do not for a moment underestimate the size of the market for Russian Aiders! Kate watched me climb, and was sold [man, was she sold...] Once Russian Aiders get out there, and people see them in use and how well they work, the demand will happen. I maintain that once the supply becomes available and enough people start using them, that they will become at least as popular - if not even more popular - than traditional aiders. Think about not just how many aiders get sold each year, but how many people own aiders, and who will want to upgrade to Russkies. Mark my words on the upcoming popularity of RAiders - you heard it here first.
Caveat - OK, OK - you heard it from me first, and it was about five years ago! The only reason Russian Aiders haven't replaced traditional aiders yet is because there is no supply! Sheesh.
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Dec 15, 2007 - 04:03pm PT
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Thanks everyone for all the great info. It's nice to see a 60+ post thread about something climbing related.
Part of the deal I see with widespread commercial production of RAiders is obviously the labor invovled. These are quite a bit more intricate than bar tacking webbing into some etriers or ladders.
There would also be some labor on the R&D side of things. Any decent manufacturer would want to try out a few design tweaks before going to market.
The selling period for an item like this would be at the summer OR show since that is when product for the next spring is previewed and hopefully ordered. That means the soonest we would see a commercially viable setup at retail is in spring '09 and that is assuming some company got their $hit together and had production quality samples by this coming August.
There is also the small matter of having a consumer base to sell to. The nice thing about aid climbing to the gear companies is that it is very equipment intensive. The bad thing about aid climbing to new climbers is that it is very equipment intensive. Is aid climbing a growing enough sub-set to support this much innovation?
Realize that many of the "aid" gear sold now is used for things besides aid climbing. Many window washers (at least in Seattle) have jugs and ladders for ascending back up the rope to fix missed spots. Much of the gear is used in rescue work. The point is that RAiders are really only useful for actual aid climbing and the only people buying them would be aid climbers.
A specialty item (RAiders) in a specialtly category (aid climbing) in a specialty shop or department (climbing) in a specialty store (anyone but REI, EMS or MEC) is not going to make a dramatic impact to retailers and they are kind of important in this equation.
So, what can we do as gear dorks to help this cause?
I think that prototyping various design elements will help speed the R&D process for a future manufacturer. If we can work out some of the bugs and work out some of the feature/benefit equation that would make bringning these to market much less expensive.
Also, showing an interest in them in general is key. A gear company needs to believe there are not just interested parties out there but parties that are willing to spend money. That is another key component.
Let's keep the conversation going and post up design successes and failures.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 15, 2007 - 07:24pm PT
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Knuckles,
1. These are not super labor intensive. If I owned a bar tacker I would spend less time sewing my design together than cutting out the pieces (yes, I am slow at cutting...). Compare the sewing required to most any $50 harness and you'll quickly see that these use less material, and much less sewing. Also, there is less liability as these are not considered a life support device like a harness.
2. I don't think you need a BD, or Metolius to make these. Frankly if Fish can't see the viability out there, neither can those guys. And again, Trango tried and failed. I really think that Fish, or a similar "garage shop" operation is the way to go. Look at the Valley Giants as another great example. Nothing stops BD, Metolius, or Wild Country from making a #9 and #12, but it just isn't worth it for them. One dude with a shop can satisfy the market.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Dec 15, 2007 - 07:50pm PT
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When I had them for sale, they were slow movers... real slow. Told Pete at the time demand was 12 guys, including Canada.... sold nine pairs, gave away two pairs and kept one for the protoype of the Ultimate Russian Aider. That leaves the 3 guys you have on your list that did not get a pair.
Pete can get guys all fired up on this system for sure, and they are all hot to buy, but that is a handful of guys per year. As for the timeframe and all that, IF the hooks were available (which after a lot of trying, they ain't) these could be a "go to market item" in about 3 days from the design I already have. Fatal flaws: very limited market, dealers are not going to carry them since they are not a high margin T'shirt, and I don't really like them or use them.
If any of you really think this idea has legs, get together, back it up with some money and have a bunch made... and I mean a bunch. Test the theory on a couple of hundred pairs. That is enough units to get them made even off shore if you are lucky. Heard the talk, let's see the action.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 15, 2007 - 09:51pm PT
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For comparison, the first pair on ebay sold for $305 (ural sport), the pair a week later went for less than $100 (trango). I'm sure there is a chicken and egg problem, but I think ruskie aiders are likely to just be the Betamax of aid climbing, technically superior yet still lost into obscurity.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2007 - 12:05am PT
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If you make 'em, they will get bought and used.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Dec 16, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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It's a sure winner then.... Pete, when will your group have funding in place? Surely you wouldn't want to miss out on an early retirement for a small initial cash outlay?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 16, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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I got a cornfield in Iowa for sale...
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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I have tried them… and in my opinion they just create more of a cluster.
The main thing I didn’t like about it was; it caused you to think about steps/moves you wouldn’t normally have to consider, if you were just climbing regular aid ladders. It was VERY tedious to get the ring fast and accurately and didn’t feel quite right while standing on it.
Granted, I did only try them once so I could have probably gotten better at them, but it just seemed ridiculous to add more thinking, more “trinkets”, and odd body positions to the mix.
The less you look down, the more you can observe for upward progress.
Also, I like to get out of my aiders at every chance I can and felt very clumsy free climbing with those hooks in the way. Damn near dangerous!
But, that’s just me. Find out what works best for you. Have fun and climb hard... or easy. ;)
Cheers!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:24am PT
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The economic problem with the RAiders, and the rest of the climbing equipment business is due to a bunch of lamo sport climbers. These guys show up with a half rope, a couple of clipdraws, and start climbing. Their contribution to the outdoor-industrial complex is minimal.
Even worse, their behavior adversely influences the real climbing community, infecting it, as it were.
The net result is a bizarre fixation on free climbing, to the detriment of real climbing. Already, there is a recent fad in free climbing long hard routes on El Capitan.
What's next? Somebody not willing to even buy a few clipdraws, and then free-soloing El Capitan?
Enough of this hiking. Let's get back to climbing.
 John Salathe
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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That right there is some funny stuff!^^^
It is even from somebody who would know.....the maker of the Valley Giants.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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Tom, what’s up bro? Hope to hang again soon. I’m not sure I understand your post.
Are you talking about media pushing the free climbing monkeys? Well, that’s the next progression, dude... in, my opinion that is much more satisfying to free a bigwall than to hang on it.
That being said, there’s a ton of cool places one can go hanging on gear… and the routes that interest me are the ones with mandatory free climbing or obscurity, yes even on EC. I just think all the extra “bells and whistles” are a bit over the top.
Again, only my experience, I wouldn’t be surprised that some guy came out of the woodworks with something impressive, just not for me. I like to keep it simple.
HAVE FUN!
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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OK, Extrmcat and Kate
Get your digs in so you can boost your egos, fine by me.
A big ego is important in aid climbing, otherwise you'd realize how much more rad freeclimbers are.
Pete only cares about his partner when she is female, you don't have to believe me, I don't care.
He puts screamers on everything, no point in commenting on that.
If you all are unwilling to at least consider the danger of a downpointing hook attached to the inside of your knee, don't compound arrogant negligence with beligerant indignation.
The only reason you haven't heard of a RA accident, it most likely due to the fact that hardly anybody uses them.
I tried RA's, and found them to be a hinderance.
But then again, I'm not planning to spend more than a week on a trade route. If you're in no hurry, use what ever you want.
If you choose to disregard my experience because you don't know who I am, fine. I don't blame you at all. I have no intention of divulging my identy on this forum, but I find your assumptions to be quite amusing.
But if you want to ignore what Werner and Ammon say as well, then you truely deserve whatever may befall you.
If you can't see the difference between gear on the rack and a hook attached to your knee, you are not as deep a thinker as you think you are.
I've known Ammon and Werner since before you ever learned to tie a knot.
It's garbage like this thread that keeps me from spending much time here.
The only redeeming qualities of this diatribe have been Russ' real world experience as a manufacturer/retailer and the quality workmanship Moof has displayed.
Moof, man, you should sew other stuff too, your work looks very bomber, reminds me of my buddy Jeff the Machine.
What was that BS line? "God, that felt good!"
Glad I could brighten your day. Self esteem is very important, keep at it little fella.
Since you have admitted you haven't done a wall, I won't bust on you for not knowing that the second should always have a few hooks on them for just such an occurance, or the whole art of "lowering out".
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Sorry to have offended you, Wrathchild. It wasn't very *Christian* of me, I know. :)
-Kate.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 16, 2007 - 01:51pm PT
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Nice send on the Ranch, Pete and Kate! How was it?
Ooooh, "Diabolical" – that’s a good one, Pete!
So, regarding top-stepping in these things… There is just one hook at the knee and no hook at the foot, correct? Can you hook the top biner on the piece that you are hanging from or are the two top rings on the aid-tree-things the highest point that you can “hook” your aider-things? It looks as though if you were climbing on less-than-vertical rock, say a slab, that your reach would be limited by the design of the aiders – meaning you don’t have a sub-top-step or a grab loop to sneak your toes into. And free climbing out of ‘em (a necessity, of course…)…??? …Looks like it would be a pain. I’m gonna have to stick with Russ, Ammon, and Wrathchild on this one. (Damn… now I need some music!… cuz I’m a wrathchild, wrathchild!… cuz I’m a wrathchild, wrathchild!… (imagine distorted guitar tone…)
Thanks for the thread, though – interesting stuff and some cool climber-engineering, for sure!
“OK, I’m ready to belay!”
ps- Hey Pete, there is no way in Hell that you should have to pay 200 bucks to get your crab back. The person who is detaining the thing should cooperate and give it back. Check your email that is listed in your profile.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 02:04pm PT
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Yup, it's not hard to figure out for someone on the scene such as yourself. After all, we have a lot of the same friends.
I'm not offended. It never had anything to do with me.
I caution, you ignore. How is that my issue?
So now that that is in the open, am I going to get banned again?
I am curious though, if you knew who I am, why infer that I have no experience?
Hey, BL-
I'm gonna shoot you an email, might get bumped to junk so look for the title "wrath"
Still at the GlauXXXXXXXX email?
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 16, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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Hey WC:
The give-away on your identy wasn't your friends, it was the combination of your resume + the depth of your feelings and thoughts on Pete and his "way". Most people with that level of climbing couldn't care less about him. It would have required experience with him...not saying it isn't justified, just saying that its obvious.
The "Expert Eye" comment was that an eye that picked up the taped hook/bolt combo, combined with the experience listed, it was pretty funny not to notice the scream aid on the "Bolt." You gotta give me that one. I commented only to explain why the hook was taped, and that even a rivit, where in many cases might be bombproof, was suspect in that circumstances. Therefore, the strategy of "Protect all you can."
Either way, appreciate your warnings on the RAs, just like anybody else's. Will report back *hopefully* with femur and femoral artery in tact. If not, I give a stamp of approval for whatever you write on my memorial thread, if I get one. However, if its some other stupid-ass mistake that takes me out first, I humbly request that you hold back if possible a period of one year, till my dear ol' Mum stops reading it every other day.
Soas to not further junk up this thread, reply if you wish, but I'll shoot you an email response if you so wish. I'll log off for now, unless its relative to the RAs.
Heading out to pretend to climb...
-Kate.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Satan's testicles
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Dec 16, 2007 - 03:02pm PT
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By all means, go climbing.
Actually, if you search my user ID, I clearly identify myself. But since I am not female, pete won't remember.
Once someone is dead, all ribbing stops, so don't worry about that. I know all about the 'Mom' thing.
There are only two exceptions to that rule, and one has already passed.
As for the "seeing" and "eye" stuff.... Get back to me on that when your in your 40's. ;-)
Don't get me wrong, I thought RA's were going to be great, but then I tried them and found them to be worse than adj aiders, which should ONLY be used for jugging BTW.
I found the risk to far outweigh the benefit.
Out of curiosity, what kind of aiders were you using before? I used the Yates wall ladder and if you tape the ends of the tubes right they friggin' ruled.
I'm only poking around on the Taco because my Transmission just went out and I can't go skiing until it's fixed.
Once it's fixed, you won't be seeing me anymore, there is 2 feet in my front yard and it's not even Christmas yet. I intend to get 100 days in this season, and I don't mean typing.
Be well Kate,
Christian
edit- Ah, you are correct you did get that one. I saw that it was a screamer, but didn't note that it was a Scream AID!
That's even better!
That's a great example of what I am always saying.
Be safe, getting older does have a few rewards.
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