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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:22pm PT
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"That said, I don't take him to Yosemite, JTree, Castle Rock, or other areas that have restrictions. I minimize his weed impact by removing any burs, etc. I don't let him dig or bark. And I keep him out of people's stuff."
This is common sense. If everyone did this, there would be no issue. The problem is that Wes is in the top .001 percentile of intelligent dog owners. Last time I was at RHV there were 4 (thats right -- FOUR) unleashed dogs running, eating my lunch, f*#king eachother, barking, snapping at people, and being nice and quiet. Your dog is cute, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want your dog to come lick them (or in my case, run onto my lap while I'm at a sit start, his big ass tail whapping me in the face).
Leave Fifi at HOME in JT or any other national park. If you have no one to leave him with, or he's important enough to you that you HAVE to bring him, go somewhere where you won't find other people.
Not the Thin Wall.
Not the Short Wall.
Not Hall of Horrors.
Where people aren't going to be bothered. If I see unleashed dogs, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
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scooter
climber
Moss Landing CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Bee- Daisy Dog would attack you. After that we would feed you to the Great Whites that live just over the dunes. Did you hear about the attack near Monterey in Aug.? Well, it was only 5 miles down coast from here. 13-15 footer. Since you weren't a local, none of the surfers here would help you either. They are extra mean. We may even tell them you are from Boulder. If it weren't bad enough already.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:37pm PT
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Take a deep breath and go warm yourself some milk to cry into.
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spud
climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:41pm PT
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Well, one could always start a doggie day care in Joshua Tree, just for climbers in the Park--or place misbehaving dogs in the Iron Door.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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"Your dog is cute, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want your dog to come lick them...
... If I see unleashed dogs, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass."
Right, chill out, what was I thinking? This is America! I should just start getting overly offended too! Let's see, what bothers me that also happens to be illegal in JTree?
Your party is fun, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want to hear your party in the campground at night.
... If I hear any noise 1 minute past 10pm I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
Your pot is a good time, and only to YOU. Just assume that the other 6 billion people in the world don't want to smell your nasty pot-smoke,
... If I smell any pot, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
Your camping group is a fun, and only to YOU. Just assume that its unfair to the other 6 billion people in the world that you have a 7th person on your site!
... If I notice any sites with any extra people, I'll let the rangers know as I leave to fine your ass.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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A.C., you're killin' me with the pics...quite appropriate.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:09pm PT
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You're absolutely right, Cleo.
Climbers that break the law bug the sh#t out of me. Guys who light up a freeway flier in populated climbing areas aren't being cool, they're breaking the law.
Just as I don't give a sh.it about your dog, the national park service doesn't give a sh.it about your climbing access.
But be a friendly guy. Take your dog everywhere, because he is just so cool. Roll a fatty on Swan Slab while your at it, and have 15 of your best friends play the bongos till 4am in hidden valley while the loser old guys are trying to sleep. Heck, bring a Dijeridoo, a 24 pack of Natty Ice, and a ghetto blaster big enough to draw the whole cast of Pimp My Ride into a little break dancing session. After all, its not about what is illegal or extremely annoying, but about how 'cool' you look. Being a badass climber and sticking it to the man is cool. God I love high school.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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It's civil liberties vs. not-being-offended.
We give up our civil liberties all the time to promote a less offensive, or safer, or more fair society... in the case of speed limits and laws prohibiting murder, I agree that the rules are a good thing.
In the case of dogs too, I agree, provided dogs are prohibited based on scientific reasoning and real environmental detriment, or, if to make the place safer. Problem is, most prohibition on dogs is NOT based on scientific reasoning, and the vast majority of dogs are not unsafe... NPS has a BLANKET RULE on dogs, and it doesn't make sense. Now, there are areas that do make sense to ban dogs, for example near ground-nesting birds, and in that case, I'm happy to comply and even to help enforce!
Wes has got it right... you're annoyed by the dog, but someone else is annoyed by you, or annoyed to not have a dog. Who's more in the right? I say neither person, unless that dog is causing trouble (coming over for a sniff does not constitute trouble, sorry).
Regarding parties, smoking pot, and "being cool"... I don't do any of those things, but WHO CARES!?!? So I have to put some earplugs in to go to sleep while people chit chat around their campfire until 1am, big deal.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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civil liberties hijacking...
any else notice that the more "liberal" a place is, the more bans, rules, lawyers, stupid lawsuits, etc?
crow, in wyoming if your 6-year old wants to set off a pack of fireworks on the school soccer field in the middle of town, it's ok!
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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here is your science, cleo
R. A. McArthur et al. (1982 see C. Sime 1999) conducted human disturbance trials in which a person approached a group of bighorn sheep: alone from a road, from the road accompanied by a leashed dog, and from a ridge away from the road. The strongest reaction (milling, fleeing) occurred when the sheep saw a human with a leashed dog. There was no evidence of habituation in repeated trials. McArthur et al. (1982) concluded, The presence of dogs on sheep range should be discouraged.
Some people do not like to encounter a dog, even a leashed dog (P. T. Corkery, San Francisco Examiner, March 28, 2003). Some non-dog owners are made uncomfortable, even frightened, when a strange dog comes close, barks, or shows aggression. Since dog owners consider close contact with their dog to be a pleasant experience, they may think that everyone enjoys this too and not be sensitive to the experience of other park visitors. (Chester, 2003).
Dog Owners
Public lands managers have found that even where dogs on leash are permitted on trails, owners often allow their dogs to run free. In a survey conducted at Angeles National Forest, where dogs are allowed on trails as long as they are on a leash, 90 percent of the dogs observed on trails were off leash (Chester, 2003).
Disease and Parasite Transmission by Dogs
Dogs can transmit a number of pathogens to humans and wildlife via feces, through blood-sucking insects, or directly to other species. Toxocaria can cause blindness in children. Parvovirus affects other canines, and was the source for wolf-pup mortality in Glacier National Park in the early 1990s. Muscle cysts (Sarcocystis spp.) affects ungulates such as deer and bighorn sheep. Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects the kidneys and urinary tract of most mammal species. Parasites, such as ticks, keds, tapeworms, and fleas are well-known problems in dogs that can be passed to other animals, including humans. (Chester 2003).
cleo: http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parkmgmt/dogs.htm
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beebuh
Big Wall climber
boulder
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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Occaisionally, a desert tortoise, a federally listed threatened species, is found to have been chewed on by dogs.
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spud
climber
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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This is getting completely out of hand!
You all need to get
A SEX LIFE!
I hear LOCKER is available.
As Tom Robbins said
"ERLICHDA"
LIGHTEN UP
THERE ARE MORE PRESSING ISSUES THAN DOG SH#T AT JTREE
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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My dog is a chronic sandwich thief. She strikes like lightning. Watch out.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Not when you step in it.
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:34pm PT
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Yo Gdavis,
You have so many camping options in J-tree. If you don't like the noise (or dirtbags) then go camp in Jumbo, or the cove, etc. HV is clearly a party scene so don't go there if you don't want noise late at night. Go sleep somewhere else. It's not as if there are late night parties elsewhere in the park because the tool stops them. We've been harassed because we were playing an acoustic guitar at one of the most 'remote' jumbo sites before by the man at 10 PM on the nose. No yelling, no singing, just mellow guitar!
So what do I do? I camp elsewhere if at all possible, if not I guess I have to be quiet. So if you go to HV then accept the noise or go camp elsewhere.
Same thing is true more generally, don't go to a place that has a scene you KNOW you won't like (by choice when other options are abound) then complain about it.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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Thank you, beebuh, this is getting to be a much better discussion, so lets talk about all these points, ok?
>"R. A. McArthur et al. (1982 see C. Sime 1999) conducted human >disturbance trials in which a person approached a group of >bighorn sheep..."
Fair enough. But if this is the reason for banning dogs in JTree, why then, are dogs allowed at all in the Park? And while we are on this subject, what are the major threats to bighorn sheep, anyway?
From the Defenders of Wildlife site:
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/bighorn_sheep.php
"Hunting, loss of food from livestock grazing and disease from domestic livestock have devastated Bighorn Sheep populations. While livestock is not as much of a threat as in the past, loss of habitat from development is an increasing threat. Normally, predators like mountain lions, wolves, bobcats, coyotes and golden eagles do not pose a threat to bighorn sheep. However, in areas where sheep populations are low, the death of a sheep from a natural predator can be a risk to the larger population."
Hmmm... so disease from LIVESTOCK is a threat? But PREDATORS are NOT a threat? Dogs aren't even mentioned. Why then are horses allowed, but not dogs? NPS reasoning makes no sense.
>Some people do not like to encounter a dog, even a leashed dog >(P. T. Corkery, San Francisco Examiner, March 28, 2003)."
Uh yea... there are lots of things that lots of people don't like. Duh. This goes back to my chill out and get-a-grip argument. I encounter plenty of things that I dislike every day, but that doesn't mean I think those things should be banned... I deal with it.
>Public lands managers have found that even where dogs on leash >are permitted on trails, owners often allow their dogs to run >free...
I'm not sure what the point of this one is. A leash law would at least be a compromise and give dog owners a better option. I bet if I took a map of any park, geographically bounded every trail, road, and overlook by 100 yards, you'd be looking at < 1% of the Park's area... e.g. even if the dog is off-trail, it really ain't much of an impact.
>Disease and Parasite Transmission by Dogs
>Dogs can transmit a number of pathogens to humans and wildlife >via feces, through blood-sucking insects, or directly to other >species. Toxocaria can cause blindness in children. Parvovirus >affects other canines, and was the source for wolf-pup mortality >in Glacier National Park in the early 1990s. Muscle cysts >(Sarcocystis spp.) affects ungulates such as deer and bighorn >sheep. Leptospirosis is a bacterial disease that affects the >kidneys and urinary tract of most mammal species. Parasites, >such as ticks, keds, tapeworms, and fleas are well-known >problems in dogs that can be passed to other animals, including >humans. (Chester 2003).
Um, ok... cross-special diseases are sort of the case with any organism, including humans. Now, can you provide statistics and facts that prove that these above diseases are being transmitted from dogs to wildlife and seriously impacting their populations?? Real impacts, real facts, not "a dog might possibly transmit some horrible disease, or maybe a flea." Having said that, this is the strongest argument in the bunch, and one worth looking into further.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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kev, you going to Josh for t-day?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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The total lack of understanding of logic displayed by the pro doggos, along with the fact that this is the 9,476th dog thread ans still nothing has been accomplished, brings me to this:
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kev
climber
CA
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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Bluering,
Yeah I'll be there. Got your msg to late on sat.
Give me a buzz tonight....
kev
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Nov 19, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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"
You have so many camping options in J-tree. If you don't like the noise (or dirtbags) then go camp in Jumbo, or the cove, etc. HV is clearly a party scene so don't go there if you don't want noise late at night. Go sleep somewhere else. It's not as if there are late night parties elsewhere in the park because the tool stops them. We've been harassed because we were playing an acoustic guitar at one of the most 'remote' jumbo sites before by the man at 10 PM on the nose. No yelling, no singing, just mellow guitar! "
Thats totally true, however I was merely commenting on the fact that certain things that are against the 'rules' (ugh buzzword) are ignored because of the place. Reminds me of the last time (last time? every time...) I'm in Camp 4 the guy next to me has to light up. I don't smoke, I don't mind if people do, but blech smelly. I mean, I COULD camp in Upper pines, but that doesn't mean that lighting up in broad daylight in a crowded campground is ok. Like, if tourons started having picnics at the base of popular routes and keeping people from climbing them, we COULD go somewhere else, but rather just have everyone be civil eh?
Sorry if I offended cool dog owners, but fact of the matter is too many boobs out there are ruining it for the good ones of ya. Just like I get pissed at climbers who solo delicate arch and put a full page ad of it in a climbing rag (SICK SEND BRO!!!!111 not.). Bad dog owners don't speak for everyone, but unfortunately, I never see the well behaved people. Or dogs for that matter.
In all honesty, the parks service feels the same way about climbing. Most parks personnel aren't climbers, and their #1 priority and job is a congressionally (or state) mandated order to preserve the wilderness for future generations. If it gets to be a headache they will just turn it off like in Arches, or make up some lame animal to protect (MYLF or MILF? I forget) to close a crag.
Sometimes I wonder if the NPS had their way El Cap would be a safe, educational Via Ferrata. Worst enemy might be themselves : /
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