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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:34am PT
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With the approach the Streaked Wall has, why does it matter? Its just not ever going to see the traffic that Touchstone has. Seems a good place to let the routes be burly, as a laboratory if nothing else. If a placement gets blown beyond repair, it'll get a bolt or you can chisel out a nut placement then. It'll still never be the eyesore that the haulbag streak on Prodigal Son or Touchstone is.
Any climbing has an impact in the desert. If you don't like it, stop climbing and start kayaking.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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Well the SW isn't likely to get much bag wear, but wear IS cumulative and saying that it doesn't get much traffic is disingenuous.
And just for the record, I don't bemoan the traffic on the trade routes, but rather the effect it has, especially when unneccesary.
edit;
Ammon?
How many?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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I gotta hand it to 'em. I asked the question quite simply way back in the eighth post and have muddled through a series of ad hominem attacks without a hint of an answer.
20?
100?
200?
You see I DO know something about that sugary white rock. Some won't even hold bolts reliably.
So eventually when the beak placements have all become 5" craters and the surrounding rock looks like swiss cheese from bad bolts the route is GONE.
So how many ascents do you think Ammon?
Pretty soon I'm going to start an Ammon for President thread.
Anybody that can persistently dodge such a simple question has a great future in politics. Maybe his secret buddy, the anonymous scatologist Browneye, can run for VP.
(the anonymous scatologist; I like that, must be the iambic quadrameter)
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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Piton,
wasn't it you that chipped/drilled all of those routes in Snow Canyon? Now you are the clean climbing police? WTF? This type of typical "local climber can do what he wants but criticize others" bullshit is so tiresome. Practice what you preach and maybe people will take you seriously.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:38pm PT
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Boys, boys, boys--hammer+steel+rock=DESTRUCTION....period.
Y'all are arguing semantics about the above equation.
Both sides:
Do what you have to do to sleep well at nights, just don't tell anybody what you did. All of us climbers are self-righteous, hypocrits nearly every time we open our mouths to tell of our "endeavors".
Adventure is satiated in the mind--telling about it is critiqueable entertainment.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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mbb,
more misdirection.
Besides, the routes you refer to DO go clean. Repeatedly.
My clean walls in Zion may not be pristine, but they were meant to support countless ascents, not just my own.
No inconsistency in the ethics from my perspective.
(But I know how people tend to "project" their values onto other peoples actions, incorrectly assuming they understand the reasoning.)
But back to the question, Ammon. How many.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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Here here, mojede. The personal attacks add to the ego involvement. We're ALL destructive...especially making fragile places be more widely known here on the ST.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Ron, the answer to your question is the same number as any of your FA routes: countless
The difference is MANY parties will be doing the damage, putting bolts in, making the scars bigger, not just by ONE man doing all the damage at once like you do on your FA’s.
The only argument I am debating is that doing routes in a push is in fact, less impact than spending multiple days on the route. Your arguments seem to be all over the board.
Do what I say not what I do, right Ron?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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PR says i perpetuate rumours...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=150573&msg=151229#msg151229
pr said there,
"I'm not going to go into my Zion drilled pockets, Climb Against Nature, but rather wish to focus on a handful of routes in Snow Canyon State Park as well as discuss the variety of physical impacts climbers perpetrate. "
a rumour or truth that you wish were unknown PR?
climbing is a selfish sport, all the way around.PR would argue that a carved up A1 up the SW is better than the current adventurous lines. and that by his carving he is "better" than those who are out seeking their own adventures.
i dont buy it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Stink,
I stopped publishing a decade and a half ago.
Ammon,
I'll wager that you are WRONG.
Touchstone must've had a thousand ascents. Do you REALLY think that that white rock will support as many?
Browneye,
I said you TWIST rumors (not to mention re-editting quotes. How can I respond to one when you just insert another?)
An example would be say, to say that I suggested carving routes up the SW, but you'd never do THAT would you?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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i guess your delusions may have their own personal benfits PR. no editing your quotes on my part. no twisting rumours just presenting your own twisted "truth". whatever that appears to be.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
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My bad Browneye,
just got done responding to your quote of mine on the Ammon for Prez thread.
But you haven't responded to my example.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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I don't care who's doing it, or why. A chiseler is a chiseler. A chipper is a chipper. Period.
It's a pretty self-righteous attitude to condemn others for hammering in a pin here and there while you openly admit to (and deny at the same time. wtf?!) chipping and chiseling the rock to suit your own vision and needs... How is that not the absolute definition of self-righteous and hypocritical? That's probably a question needing more of an answer than badgering someone about how many ascents they think a certain wall/route might see...
Seriously, wtf? I really have to agree with Ammon in that the huge difference between chiseling and chipping the routes into trade routes (read as "into submission") is f*#king cheating a lot of people out of an experience. It's kinda like the lame movies about time machines and cheating time, etc. Just shouldn't be done. If *only* a twisted fate came to those who chip and chisel.
And, riddle me this, Ron... What makes you think that the decades of damage you've done to routes stops because of "constructive scarring"? All you've really done is speed up the demise of the rock/routes and in the process cheated a ton of people out of something. Anyone who's climbed in Zion, or on Wingate, in general, knows it evolves much faster than Granite or other hard rocks. Place a cam, a nut, even use a foothold and the rock is altered. I'm just curious how you possibly think that altering the rock, in anyway, slows this process. I'm not buying it.
Anyhow, you guys hash this out... I'm out to the desert, myself, for the next couple of weeks.
Cheers!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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ron, i dont hink my response would fit with your reality, whatever that is at the moment.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Nov 15, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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It's sad to see that this forum has deteriorated to this level and that two other forums that have popped up because of it. Why can't people just get along...
Zion is a fragile environment and whatever we do will have lasting consequences for generations to come. I doubt that I ever get up on the streaked wall since A4+ is totally out of my comfort zone, but I'm still interested in the evolution of these climbs and how they will change over time with wear and tear.
Is it a real concern or not? Does the Park service really care? Are we doing the classic, can't see the forest for the tress syndrome...
Could someone please post up some concise information about the routes up there, their history, grades, gear, etc. Thanks.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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Here's a great photo that Eric Draper took of Matt Erdmann on Tales.
Hope all is smile'n!
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