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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 04:48pm PT
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gyms totally suck until the weather totally sucks and then gyms are totally cool and fun.
how's that girl with the broken ankles doing?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:17pm PT
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chumbawumba:
Many thanks for the case law. I figured it had to be abuilding out there.
No need to point out the defendant winds up poor no matter the verdict.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Brian in SLC
Pick up 20 top gyms in USA and call them the up and ask, when they will offer a seminar on climbing safety or any related topic, also ask them when the last time they offered such classes or seminar . Then ask them when the next time they will teach rock is climbing 101 or basic lead climbing.
I bet they offer those classes every week.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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Majid_S
Most every gym I've been to offers instruction on how to TR and/or lead climb (exception being gyms that are bouldering only). I've not been to one where you didn't have to "pass the test".
Do you climb in a gym? You must know this.
The things I see getting taught all involve safety.
Proper knot tying. Proper tie in. Proper belay. Rope/climbing commands. Communication. Check your partner. Don't Z clip. Don't back clip. Etc etc etc.
Next you'll be blaming REI for not putting climbing ropes in a plain paper wrapper, behind the counter...
Ha!
-Brian in SLC
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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Majid,
Most don't, which I guess is your point. And classes tend to be gym-centric instead of rock-centric (which is fine; they are gyms). At the old PG gym I once witnessed a "crack climbing" class taught by gym employee who hated crack climbing. Uh, OK.
I learned to rock climb in the outdoor rock 1 & rock 2 classes taught through maysho's old City Rock gym in Emeryville. In the second day we learned to lead on gear. That gym is long gone, but it looks like the classes are still offered. So there seems to be climbing instruction available in the bay area.
http://daltman.com/outdoor.html
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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Quick sample of a few of the gyms I've been to:
Haven't found one that doesn't offer instruction...
-Brian in SLC
http://www.upperlimits.com/bloomington/index.html
Instruction for beginning to advanced climbers, indoors and out.
http://www.earthtreksclimbing.com/
Learning the Basics: There are some important safety skills that you need to learn if you want to start climbing independently at an Earth Treks Climbing Center or outdoors.
You can learn the basics with the Introductory Package or outdoors in the Introduction to Rock Climbing course. Both of these options deliver a great climbing experience and lay a solid foundation of safety skills, including harness use, knot tying, and belaying.
http://touchstoneclimbing.com/bi.html
I n t r o t o C l i m b i n g C l a s s (Walk-in registration daily)
Enjoy an immediate climbing experience with our instructors as they guide you through the proper use of belay equipment, knot tying and basic top rope climbing. Personal responsibility and safe climbing practices are emphasized. Recommended for first-time climbers, minimum age 14. Please arrive 15 minutes before the schedule class start time. For a complete listing of class times and prices, check each gyms' respective pricing page.
Skill Clinics
Intermediate Technique
Lead Climbing
Outdoor Climbing
Self-Rescue Techniques
Aid Climbing
http://www.rockreation.com/
Fight Gravity 1
Learn the basic safety skills necessary to pass our safety check and climb at Rockreation.
In this 2 hour course, you will learn introductory top rope skills including how to put on your harness, tie-in with a double figure eight climbing
http://www.phoenixrockgym.com/
Even if you've never touched a rope in your life we will teach you the skills needed to climb safely.
http://www.momentumclimbing.com/
We offer climbing instruction and outdoor guiding and private coaching for all ages and abilities. We have a classroom for school, church and scout groups.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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I used to teach climbing.
I did not get paid.
I did not say much.
Except: "Follow me"
And off we went to climb.
Why all this heavy Bullshit nowadays.
Blah blah blah, do this, do that, do like this.
They came to climb with me, hoping to still be alive at the end of the day .....
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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What I am hearing is instruction exists. As long as an avenue exists and people are made very aware they are two entirely distinct disciplines, then they are not left hanging. If a gym does not run outdoor trips to teach lead climbing they should be able to provide references to other places and instructors that will give the appropriate training. Cost will be higher for individualized instruction, but that is the nature of the beast.
I think doing other than pure top roping in a gym tends to blur the distinction between gym and outdoor, and that may be where the trouble really crops up.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
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Amen, jstan!
Indoor skills are different from what's needed outside. You can get hurt or killed finding out that difference.
GM
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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I wonder how many SuperTopians learned in some formal setting (gym, course, guide, scouts...), and how many simply figured it out themselves? I suspect most fall into the latter category - there weren't that many resources in the 1970s. We had Basic and Advanced Rockcraft, Freedom of the Hills, and the magazines. Hopefully some friends who were willing to tolerate an apprentice/belayer, and even pass on some tips. But guides, courses and such weren't common.
Certainly climbers from that period died - risk is inescapable in climbing. But generally not from the errors of inexperience. And there are still many climbers who'll voluntarily help others get off on the right foot. (So to speak.)
The important thing is that climbing is experience based, and you're always responsible for yourself. You can never stop learning. And it takes time. Not generally a game for those wanting immediate gratification.
When I started, at Squamish and Leavenworth, we didn't have a lot of role models to learn from. We learned, painfully slowly, about everything as we went, starting with simple moderate climbs. It helped that we did a lot of aid and mixed climbing - it provides a lot of experience at placing gear, immediate feedback, and a relatively secure environment. It took a long time to even come close to the edge of the free climbing difficulty envelope, as we slowly "broke through" the 5.8, then 5.9, then (gasp!) 5.10 barriers. But when we did, we were ready.
Werner once told me, many years ago, that he'd done 13 grade Vs before his first grade VI. In context of commenting on those who appeared in the Valley and threw themselves on the nearest name brand grade VI.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Indoor skills are different from what's needed outside. You can get hurt or killed finding out that difference.
Nah. I use the same belay commands, same knots, check my partners harness, same way I clip a draw...indoors as out.
Sure, there's ton more to climbing outside. But, the basics of climbing are the same, indoors and out. And, the movement you can learn in a gym, applies outdoors as well. Heck, with a good coach...
You can also have a lifetime of enjoyment finding out the difference.
Baby steps or giant leap. You gotta get up on that horse by yourself sometime (or not). Whether you picked up some skills in a gym, by reading a book (blame the "how to rock climb" series? Ha ha), by being shown through scouts or friends, or, professional instruction. It'll all be on you when you tie into the sharp end and head up.
Brian in SLC
(who learned to climb outside but really enjoys climbing gyms when going outside isn't practical due to time and weather constraints)
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:19pm PT
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As usual, Werner nails it. Blaming a clymin gym for a leaders accident is disingenuous. I have complaints about the gym (blown tendons, loose holds). But to argue they dont teach noobs skills for outdoor climbing just makes you look silly.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:27pm PT
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Rapping, gear selection, setting up a gear belay, rope management, protection placement, covering the second on a traverse, escaping the belay for an injured partner, knowing when to go on or back off, keeping an eye out for the weather, route finding, need I go on?
Gyms obviously have their place. But they don’t prepare you with what you need outside. Only experience outside can do that.
They are different animals.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:32pm PT
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Ever climb at Rifle? American Fork? BCC? Shelf Road? Big Chief? Smith Rock? Wild Iris? HCR? NRG?
Obviously, they probably would not be ready for the North Arete on mt. Morrison.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Rapping...escaping the belay for an injured partner...
Been to a number of gyms that teach self rescue...
need I go on?
Please do, the gym is killing my ring finger pulleys...and I seem to have some tendonitis in my left elbow...
Gyms obviously have their place. But they don’t prepare you with what you need outside. Only experience outside can do that.
They are different animals.
Certainly. But, they can prepare you with some basic skills, and, they can be the gateway drug to the out of doors...
Which, depending whether your glass is half full or empty, can be a good or a bad thing...
-Brian in SLC
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Gene
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Atch,
Or, apparently, Lovers Leap.
Best wishes to the injured climber. Having also hurt myself doing this stuff, my wish is that everybody stays safe, and if not safe, be lucky. Failing those, mend well and quickly.
GM
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:43pm PT
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is there evidence this unfortunate leader ever climbed at a gym?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:49pm PT
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The very first lesson I received on the rock was, "You need
to be comfortable wherever you are." You have to be
comfortable to figure out where the route goes, you have to
be comfortable to place trustworthy protection, you have to
be comfortable to plan the protection system, you have to
be comfortable to figure out the move, and last but not least
you have to be comfortable to make the risk versus return
decision involved in going higher.
From what I have seen the goal in a rock gym is to be
uncomfortable. If you are not uncomfortable you are said to
be doing too easy a climb. Climbing takes place in the
brain. In the brain the two experiences are, in many ways,
diametrically opposed.
I know I will be challenged so I will revert to the story of
Pratt when he was way the hell and gone up a chimney with
no chance of protection. The story goes everyone was
running to the car to get anything that might help. Till Chuck
calmly said, "If no one minds, I believe I will continue."
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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It's been mentioned that she was a Pipeworks climber...
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chumbawumba
climber
SF, CA
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Oct 16, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
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"How about a few weeks with "Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills" or a Largo book? Then work up the grades."
This is how my friends and I learned to climb. We knew climbing looked awsome after a trip to Yos. We had no mentors and took no classes. Purchased the above referenced books and read them a couple dozen times (they are still fixtures in my bathroom). We then bought a rope, webbing, some nuts, some biners and were super cautious. We'd make top rope anchors equalized to a dozen different pieces and backed up to tree. The anchor would be tested in every which way we could imagine. When TR'ing got boring we slowly started to lead and work up through the grades. 16 years later and I'm still alive. In hindsite, it was probably the lack of instruction that made us so careful.
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