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jstan
climber
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So much to which to respond I don’t know where to start:
TRAILS:
When I unilaterally put the ribbons up to see where trails might possibly go and which Richie P. quite rightly took down immediately, I learned no individual should attempt to change in any way the lands we share. All trail work in which I was involved was done under the supervision of Thom Scheuer and a couple of his people. There were a number of very important salutary effects.
First, the work was done with the Preserve’s knowledge and direction. I am confident Dick has this all prearranged in his work.
Second, we wanted trails that would not unnecessarily impact the area visually. There is a natural tendency for a person to build a visible trail so people can appreciate what they have done. We wanted trails that work as trails but leave you feeling you were the one who decided where to step. Thom and the rangers had much better knowledge of such things than did we. Better than did I at least.
Third, it got climbers digging and moving rock side by side with Preserve people. Cooperative physical work is the surest and best way to strengthen the relationship between people. It is quite simply invaluable.
As an aside, we saw something like this working at Facelift4 for building relationships. Ken had provided for liquid refreshments at the final party but he was worried that people would have trouble getting back to their campsites. Now listen up to what the terribly bureaucratic and horrible National Park Service suggested. They suggested their park rangers use the paddy wagon to take people wherever they needed to go. I heard that some of the climbers also wanted hand cuffs used but I don’t know what all came out of that. Pretty funny.
Another thread is currently and unproductively (I think) addressing the issue of relationships of this sort. Once relationships have been established people on both sides can come down off their reactive pedestals and become real people. Ken and Jesse have done wonderfully creative work on this critical area.
THE ROCK
Ah yes, there is a story with regard to the rock near Handy Andy.
We needed to move this big flat boulder up the slope so that people belaying would have a place other than beaten down dirt on which to stand. Something natural. Mind you, I had been working really hard on this for several years; I was wearing down, and may have even discovered that I was pregnant. In any event I was coming, once more to an end. I had to know whether we had managed to help people or whether we had just caused problems. You can never tell this by the way. The moment to find out came. I got down with my face and shoulder into the rock and said to my friend who had spent many Sundays picking up trash with me, "Let’s see if we can move this." He gave me an incredulous look but got down beside me anyway. The boulder, weighing a ton or more, was still half buried and I knew we had no chance of moving it. I could see nothing from my position but I immediately heard racks hitting the ground all up and down the carriage road. Soon there was not room left for even one more finger under that rock. The rock rose up as if by magic and was settled into the hole prepared for it.
By this we learned all of the work by so many people had created something that would live on after we were gone. The people had come together. For me that moment when the rock rose up was like no other. It is with me even today.
LEADERSHIP
I will admit I originally thought the fact a number of people thought well of me, for some unknown reason, might help me in my effort. But I don’t think so now. It was just my ego talking. You don’t have to be a leading climber at all to make a contribution. It can even be a hindrance because people will then imagine reasons to explain what you are doing.
You really need only three things.
You need always to be willing to give of yourself.
You need always to be willing to listen to people.
You need always to be willing to include people who do not agree with you.
Most critically, you can never have a moment when you are unwilling.
NEVER.
The goal is to engage people and to include them. So projects have to be created, supported, and publicized. Getting a thing done is not the goal. Getting people involved in doing the thing – is the goal.
When you succeed, you will receive a moment like no other, and you will hold it close the rest of your life.
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Nice, JStan. Excellent points.
Now are you really sure there aren't that many cracks to climb at the Gunks.
I said that once here, and Aya K disagreed. LOL.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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DAMMIT!!!
don't.
make.
me.
warm.
up.
my.
SCANNER!!!!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Thanks JStan. Pretty cool story about the rock. You are right that the projects Dick works on are with the Preserve knowledge and no doubt there's more that goes on behind the scenes than one realizes. There are some things only the rangers are allowed to do, like cut down dead trees with the chainsaw.
You might not have heard, and BVB - maybe this will get you out back to the Gunks.... But there is, in the works, the acquisition for a parcel of land(Rosendale Water Works) which will become a part of the Preserve. It is purported to have world class bouldering, and if all goes well, should be opened sometime in 2008. The Open Space Institute is to buy the land, and then give it to MP.
I don't know anything at all about the land, but am assuming that there will be big amounts of volunteerism needed to develop trails fairly quickly(in order to preserve ground plants and lessen impact of foot traffic).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 11:17am PT
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Jstan- Thanks for the recollections of Persistence and your well considered perspective on group activism and land use issues. I couldn't agree more strongly that we are entering an exciting and potentially very productive period as a user group. Ken's inclusive approach in Yosemite is a great indication of what may be possible on a much broader scale once the adversarial nature of past interaction is let go. Too much anarchistic self image can be a difficult habit to break but we all need to question the character of the actual freedom that ultimately results from habitually throwing off or avoiding cooperation or external constraints. Attitude in isolation will not open a closed crag or further our collective position. Thanks again for sharing your mind and process. You do a lot of good with your contributions to the ST and I always enjoy your thoughts and reflections.
And now a little more eyecandy.....from DuMais.
Wish I was turning a roof right now!
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jstan
climber
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I always thought the freeing of Coexistence never caused the stir it merited. After getting over the supposed crux you still had only those little damn things with which to work. And knowing Richard as I do, I would bet money he was merrily humming the whole time.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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The humming you heard was my clothes flapping in the breeze caused by falling. I fell off two or three times (which seemed really radical in 1967, at least to me) before making it. I also contrived to miss the best hold, just for added adventure. Wow, that was forty years ago, pretty much to the day.
By the way, the posted picture of Coex is of Barbara Devine, our beloved Kevin Bein's wife. She was one of the first women in the country to lead 5.11. (She's still around in the Hudson Valley area...not climbing as far as I know.)
The climber on Retribution is Joe Bridges.
Retribution was my first 5.10. I climbed it around 1964, give or take a year or two, seconded by none other than Yvon Chouinard, who was East for a visit.
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Harv
Trad climber
Nederland, CO
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Hi fellow Gunkies; Laura (Chaiten) Smith turned me onto this site and the display of some of my photos and story. First Richard was not a friend (maybe he was but they came to the Gunks at different timres) of Wolfgang. Richard came with the Editor of Alpinismus Magazine out of Austria and I was taking photos for his article on the Gunks. Second, that was Hardie Truesdale belaying off the bench at the Mohonk lake. And lastly, if any of you are coming out to the Boulder area that I knew back in the 70s in the Gunks, be sure to look me up. I now live in Nederland after 20 some odd years in Boulder.
Harv Arnold
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Welcome Harvey,
I hope that you enjoy revisiting past work as much as the rest of us! Lots of tales and images from direct participants make the ST a living history treasure. Perhaps you can quell the dispute over the meaning of "unethical" in the Foops cover caption. Some say chalk, but I think reach was clearly at the heart of the humor.
"Unethical? Maybe. Impressive? Certainly. Richard Muhe (West German) who is 6ft4ins high and weighs 180lbs, prepares to finish Foops (5.11). Shawangunks. Muhe says,"the climb is 5.11 if not harder; that depends very strongly on the individual 'body dates' of the climber."
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2007 - 10:24pm PT
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More classic shots from Richard DuMais' Shawangunk Rock Climbing, 1985.
Any stories about climbing with Fritz, Harvey? Great shot of him up there with a chest harness, same as when I had a chance to get out with him and John Rupley in Tucson in the early seventies. He is the only one I ever saw in one of those items.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Welcome Harv. I think you are going to like it here.
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redpt
Trad climber
nj
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Can some of the locals from the era comment on the accuracy of the following, this description was given to me by a local Gunks climber. Disclaimer: I don't know what period in Gunks development (my guess is somewhere 70's-80's) he was talking about exactly AND it's also possible that I misunderstood his description - it is a bit hard to believe.
I'm not trying to start any dispute here, just get things clarified.
Supposedly the "tactic" for getting the FA of a route was that the first member of the team started up the route, on lead, placing whatever pro they could, if they fell/hung they were lowered and the next person got their chance - but the gear and rope were left up so they were TR'ing some of it, this "process" would continue in rotation and the person to reach the top (and I suppose they could decide where that is on an FA) without a fall, who may have only lead/placed pro on a small section of the route would be named as having the FA.
Thanks
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jstan
climber
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I can’t speak with regards to any climb other than those I was a party to. Some of this will be background to better define the answer.
Any FA I was on caused me to write a name in my guide. But no one ever looked at my guide. I have no idea how the name going into the next guide was selected. On Fat City I put Gary Brown as first because putting the pin in was harder than doing the move. He did a superb job. I don’t know how it is listed in the guides. I have not looked at any of them. The truth is none of us were hung up on FA credits. The fun lay in figuring out the problems.
First and foremost we need to understand that most Gunks climbs involve a short section substantially harder than the rest. That illuminates several aspects of your question.
Typically the first person would go up until encountering difficulty. If there was a fall we got back on the rock at the earliest opportunity – no matter how tired we were. No resting on the rope or on any protection. Part of the fun was learning how to rest on the rock enough to make the next try. We did not pull the rope down and start over. In the context of the Gunks I thought that was kind of synthetic. Other places it may be needed to produce whatever satisfaction one is seeking.
When the leader got tired they were lowered off or down climbed and the second would have a go. I usually noted the name of the person who first surmounted the main problem. But as I said, no one ever looked at my guide.
Bottom line? We really didn’t care who got any “credits”. They have nothing to do with climbing.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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"Supposedly the "tactic" for getting the FA of a route was that the first member of the team started up the route, on lead, placing whatever pro they could, if they fell/hung they were lowered and the next person got their chance - but the gear and rope were left up so they were TR'ing some of it, this "process" would continue in rotation and the person to reach the top (and I suppose they could decide where that is on an FA) without a fall, who may have only lead/placed pro on a small section of the route would be named as having the FA."
This practice certainly occurred in the era following the tremendous achievements of Barber, Bragg, Stannard, and Wunsch, none of whom used this tactic. In fact, there was a time when Henry used to pull his rope and all but the top piece if he fell, so that the next attempt required not only reclimbing the moves up to the high point but also replacing all the gear. This never caught on.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
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I am a little surprised that Henry didn't make it to the Gunks reunion to join the other luminaries. Great to see a picture of John Reppy, who did.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2007 - 02:55am PT
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Speaking of Rich Romano in his prime... The first issue of N A Climber circa 1975 showing Rich on the left and Spaff Ackerly on the right on Persistent, rated 5.10+ at the time.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
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Oct 28, 2007 - 11:20am PT
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Spaff Ackerly - there's a name I haven't heard in a while. Last I heard he was teaching at an outdoor prep school in Carbondale after he finished a paleontoloty PhD.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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Old Gunks bump for Roy K!
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Mr. Grossman
You've just got to stop these historical links. . .
my work is suffering whilst I'm browsing and dreaming. . .
But thanks anyway!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Any week now, the weather window could open just enough for a Gunks trip. Not today, crampons advisable on our driveway.
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