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M.Tea
Trad climber
Utah
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:36am PT
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"How about "With The Old Breed" by EB Sledge".
great book.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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I've read it, and it's quite impressive.
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john hansen
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 12:56am PT
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The conditions and extremes that those Marines went thru were horrific. Living in blood and gore and sh#t ,and instant death, slogging it out for days on end.
My dad had it easy compared to those guys.
With a ship it's kind of all or nothing..
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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One of these years I need to find and make time for one of the all time great naval books, The Influence Of Sea Power Upon History by Alfred Thayer Mahan.
A retrospective of the rise of the first true world-empire, the brits, and published in 1890 this work was studied intently by numerous factions and gave rise to the near half century era of the battleship.
I tend to admire sons who can work their way out of a famous father's shadow and distinguish themselves on their own (A. T. Mahan was the son of celebrated professor of tactics at West Point, Dennis Hart Mahan) and this book lived up to its own title.
Currently I'm working on Blood and Thunder by Hampton Sides, yet another book I can chew over with John Carson about his great-grandfather Christopher.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 22, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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This is a little off topic for this thread but I thought you guys might be interested in these pics. A climbing partner of mine works in a local shipyard. When they got the Pampanito into the yard for a tune up he invited me to come take a look at it. One of my co-workers is a submarine buff so he jumped at the chance to come along. I pretty much stayed in the background as these guys discused all the workings of the ship. Here's the pics,
Zander
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 06:15pm PT
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Imagine if Hitler has pushed across the English Channel and then reinforced Sicily with some of those elite troops he sent East.
Wonder what the world would look like today.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
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Wunderbar und sehr shoen.
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MikeL
climber
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Jul 22, 2007 - 08:29pm PT
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Maybe a little OT.
Last night I watched the two movies by Eastwood on Iwo Jima back to back. I think Eastwood is becoming one of our great directors.
I was deeply impressed by Letters from Iwo Jima, perhaps even more by my own emotions that the movie welled-up in me. I kept thinking, "stupid people," "idiotcy," "insane decisions," etc. Then for some reason I thought of a passage from the Bhagavad Gita where a prince questions the incarnation of Vishnu just what his divine purpose is as the prince prepares to lead a great battle against his cousins and men he knows and loves. The prince thinks he's about to commit a great sin for simply the greed for the pleasure of a kingdom. He then tells Vishnu that it would be better if his enemies slay him, unarmed and unresisting. What IS Vishnu's divine purpose when this is part of living and life?
The language in the BG is some of the most poetic in religious writing, and perhaps some of the most enigmatic. Vishnu reveals himself to the prince in all his respendent, supreme, and terrible form, and while the prince is completely dumbstruck and awed, He says,
"I am mighty, world-destroying Time, now engaged here in slaying these men. Even without you, all these warriors standing arrayed in the opposing armies shall not live. Therefore stand up and win glory; conquer your enemies and enjoy an opulent kingdom. By Me and none other have they already been slain; be an instrument only, O Arjuna [the prince's name]. Kill [names of the prince's enemies] and the other great warriors as well, who have already been killed by me. Be not distressed by fear. Fight, and you shall conquer your foes in battle."
Letters from Iwo Jima reminded me in a very personal and terrible way how terrible war is.
Did anyone else find the movie moving?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2007 - 08:46pm PT
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I was moved by both films.
Perhaps I'm off but think that most Americans can't appreciate the values that drove the mindset of the Japanese. It becomes a question of culture.
Less than a quarter century earlier we were allies but a collision course was inevitable. It was only buffered by 60M square miles of ocean.
We didn't just embargo their oil. Tin, zinc, rubber and all sorts of other strategic material were cut off.
Its easy to demonize those who are different.
But couldn't they do the same?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 22, 2007 - 10:51pm PT
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Something that is often overlooked is that as the Japanese began their expansion in the Pacific and also into the Indian Ocean, they viewed themselves as liberators. They were the only major Asian nation not to be partly or wholly colonized by Britian or France. And then in China the Emporer lost control of his military but would not recall his general's due to the certain loss of face.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:45pm PT
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How can the "Rape of Nanking" be seen as the action of a "liberator". That happened in 36-39. Japan was an imperial expansionist power with a dilusion of racial superiority and destiny that matched the Nazis.
Don't "revise" that out of history.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 22, 2007 - 11:56pm PT
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My kid's in, with a five row rack.
What's your kid doing?
Anyone that can draw a moral equivelency between the behavior of the modern US military and the wholesale slaughter of Chinese including the sport of tossing babies on bayonets, rape and canabalisim is one sick puppy.
Crawl back in your hole .
Sicko!@
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 23, 2007 - 12:22am PT
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Gotta go with TGT on this one.
Iraq is a mess but equating Abu Graib to Nanking won't fly.
The Japanese abandonment of their humanity can fairly be compared to that of the Nazis.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 23, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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TGT. I did not say the Nanking Massacres were the act of a liberator, and I am not revising history, within my best efforts. The Japanese did cast themselves in this light though.
Read the last sentence of my post before you go all off the hook about Japan in China, which is another story altogether.
As far as U.S. actions in Iraq being compared to the out of control japanese military in China in 1938, well I think the comparison is unsound and rediculous. Of course Bush is trying as hard as he can to give this war away to his Generals, but hopefully they don't want it and won't fall for that brand of B.S.
Trumans ghost needs to walk into the Oval Office and remind a certain individual exactly where the buck stops.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jul 23, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
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One more:-
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust (Paperback)
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
Just about the driest book I have ever read, like wading through thigh deep molasses. More like a dissertation than a book, but essential reading if you want to understand the german mindset prior to WWII.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 12, 2008 - 04:05pm PT
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OK OK
Picked up Ghost Soldiers and also Last Stand Of The Tin Can Sailors.
Now I just gotta make time for them. Was on the rock for 10 hours yesterday. Gonna have to find something else to cut back on, tacos maybe?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
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I've run across the old line that it was the US' fault that the war in the Pacific occurred because we cut of this and that. Roosevelt wanted them out of China so pressure was applied. The Japanese brutalized just about every country they occupied. Nanking was the one huge massacre we have solid information on because many westerners were present. There were others in more remote areas of China that were probably worse.
If you want more on this history, read "The Rape of Nanking" by Chang(?). I have a strong stomach but only made it about halfway. She committed suicide a couple of years ago; and it's believed researching and writing the book plus the failure of her hope the book would result in the Japanese finally facing fully up to their guilt and responsibility would result.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 12, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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I didn't mean to suggest that the US provoked Japan with the embargoes when I wrote that last year Woody. Merely that it was more than just oil.
There was an inevitable political conflict born of an essential cultural dichotomy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 17, 2009 - 07:03pm PT
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Thanks again Woody.
Tin Can Sailors was a really great read.
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Gene
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Let’s continue Woody’s discussion. When I returned to this thread after it was dormant for about two years, I saw Zander’s pictures of the Pampanito. It reminded me of another WWII sub that is now a museum, the Silversides.
http://glnmmorg000.web151.discountasp.net/apps/dnn/mydnn/
When I went to the Silversides link, I saw this, which is to me a new photo, on the home page.
The good looking fellow third from the right is one Captain Eugene Ives Malone, USN (Retired), US Naval Academy Class of 1942. The good captain, aka Dad, turns 88 day after tomorrow.
gm
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