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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 18, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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There have been some good posts here!
In most cases, it takes two to tango. My strategy: Choose your battles. When someone makes a statement that raises your ire, you may have a perfectly sound retort which you are just itching to get out, but you might be stepping into someone’s deep seated issue that goes way deeper than the surface comment. Basic button pushing then ensues. We might think we are responding on the level, but we’ve aroused angst, not inquiry, and off the thread goes into a protracted, murky, and ultimately meaningless argument.
I let most stuff ride and if something gets me a little, I wait and see if I am reading something into the person’s comment which is not there (basic projection) and I also decide whether or not the person's comment is really worth engaging; after all, I likely have very little idea what they’ve been through and what those background experiences are doing to inform their edgy post. It may also be that their opinion is right for them, unsettling to me in the moment and that’s just where it is, so I let it ride. Further comment may stir the pot in an unproductive way. If a valid conflict seems to need to ensue, then I say let fly, try to investigate it with due regard for the “opponent” and see what comes of it. All easy for me to say: I post climbing pictures and silly stories and that rarely elicits a challenge from argumentative individuals. I mostly just watch the arguments and try to glean something to inform my understanding of the nature of conflict.
As has been said very well by others up thread, this is a public forum and that means we share a full value, frontier style dynamic with plenty of unsettling static (such is the human prospect): but in the end it is a pretty good training ground for self actualization and regard of others. Partly this is owing to the free for all nature of the construct. Conflict can be good. Yes, it can range from petty bickering to productive inquiry. I believe a self governed society, albeit idealistic and unlikely to materialize any time soon, is the better society. This forum is an opportunity for us all to practice self governance and the fall out is pretty benign. External controls relieve us of the opportunity to practice internal regard and understanding of self and others, just as pre-bolted climbs can relieve us of the freedom to engage the opportunity to manage natural risk.
As for the anonymity: I had a completely opposite read on the function of anonymity. When I started out on this forum, I sensed that I wanted to be a long time contributor, I was not well known in a reputation sense, I had a fake name, so I thought people would only know me by my online actions and to build a sustainable relationship with others I decided those actions needed to be fairly well behaved, clearly understood and productive, so the anonymity prompted me to actively compose my contributions such that I could present myself in a beneficial way and be received in kind.
Happy Trails,
Roy
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L
climber
Third star to the left of Ursa Major
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Jul 18, 2007 - 06:57pm PT
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Tarbaby...you are priceless!
Your words are a joy to read,
your TRs are awesome,
and your attitude is something
I'm trying hard to emulate.
Everything about you shines like a full moon on a calm ocean.
(And I tried wearing a 10-gallon climbing once in your honoor...I almost died. Will have to leave that happy trait to you and you alone! :-))
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 18, 2007 - 07:07pm PT
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Dang Tar! you got your moments!
Thank you.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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khanom aske; "So again, why not?"
Because we are climbers. Climbers deal with choss all the time in their climbing lives.
What? are you some sanitary fetish master? The rock must be perfectly clean? All your routes are perfect Direttissimas?
You see my friends this forum unbeknown is actually a long written route with many cruxes.
Some fall .........
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:01am PT
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"Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head."
Laughing so hard I couldn't type for a while. I don't know you at all Pat, but I like you a lot! I enjoy your writing and wit very much, and hope you keep posting.
Michael Smith
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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" Ability to block posts from users of your choice "
I usually think is kinda uppity and smacks of denial. I wanna make sure I and everyone else sees the whole of our community and society, the homeless and the fat cats.
Tagging the content is a nice idea. I always support labeling OT posts with Ot or the content within.
But technology isn't being used heavily on this forum cause it's just an afterthought for the main business, selling guidebooks. Why should Chris spend money and go too far out of his way when this is already the greatest show on climbing?
Great post Tarbaby. Let's take the challenge of dealing with ourselves the way climbers always have. Whack a mole if somebody gets too bad.
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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Good point khanom, I don't like choss either.
That does it, no more choss.
Everyone behave now .......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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"Because improving the forum ensures that it remains so and continues to support the real business both in terms of direct revenue from online ads and through secondary marketing of products"
Maybe so, maybe not. If it ain't that broke, fixing it could have unintended consequences.
Every change has unintended consequences. If we retrobolted the r rated slab climbs in Yosemite and TM, they would be far more usable for far more people, but that's not the only issue involved.
Example
Rockclimbing.com has FAR, FAR more users than supertopo and far more technology features in their forum. I posted the exact same thread in both forums at the exact same time. Look at the differences in quality of responses.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1625815
and
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=412041
Peace
karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 19, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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"Thanks, Tradman, for comparing me to Bush. I will now go shoot myself in the head."
Actually, little George would only attempt to shoot himself in the head. Following Dickie's example, he'd probably shoot someone else instead.
I kind of like the idea of the etiquette, if not the system, requiring that the original poster clearly state what the thread is about. That doesn't much allow for the beloved and hated thread drift, but might help a bit.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 02:19am PT
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I can't see the analogy, where cleaning up the ant vomit can be compared to retrobolting routes in Tuolumne. The latter would be highly offensive, if it means adding bolts where they didn't exist. It would be lowering the standard. I have been speaking about raising the standard, i.e. not censoring anyone's opinion or thoughts but rather simply doing away with those intrusions that have no other motivation than to create confusion or an ugly disturbance.
How about this as an analogy: I am speaking of wiping your car windows when the bugs become too many to see the road. Whole threads drive right off a cliff, for fear of wiping away the gore and splatter. But some posters of course seem to feel the splatter is part of the view and should remain, as something to prize. After all, there might be "unintended consequences" were we to turn on the windshield wiper fluid (or stop at a gas station) and clean things off. Indeed, we might actually see where we're going, and be able to continue on that path, actually see El Cap as we drive into the Valley...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 02:37am PT
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"I can't see the analogy, where cleaning up the ant vomit can be compared to retrobolting routes in Tuolumne. The latter would be highly offensive, if it means adding bolts where they didn't exist. It would be lowering the standard. I have been speaking about raising the standard, i.e. not censoring anyone's opinion or thoughts but rather simply doing away with those intrusions that have no other motivation than to create confusion or an ugly disturbance. "
Hi Pat
That was actually an analogy that applied to sub-conversation with Khanom regarding the use of technology to make the forum more useful. I stated it would have unintended consequences.
The problem with raising the standards is always that it depends on whose standards were talking about. Hangdogging and rap bolting raised the standards dramatically in some folks eyes, but probably not yours.
So having a really open dialog is critical to explore who we all are. If censorship surfaces too easily the wild ones and visionaries will shove off along with the choss. But those are the one who will shape the future of climbing, the next living histories.
Best get us all talking together here and tolerate the diversity and brashness of some young expressions and craziness. A family has all levels of maturity going on from teenagers to the elderly. Once the generation gap gets too great and the family members feel judged, then we stop learning from each other.
Peace
Karl
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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What you, Karl, and Tarbuster, say is all good. I don't disagree with any of it. But I think I'm talking about something different. Not censorship. Not intolerance. I have no problem with differences of opinion or age or mentality, in the context of our being a family. I'm talking about windshield wiper fluid or a good cloth to wipe away the bugs that obscure the view (not only destroying the beauty of the journey but putting us in peril of losing the way or even driving altogether off a cliff). But I am content to have things remain as they are, if that's how it must be.
Maybe I should be more open, you know, ride a bike, no windshield, put myself right out there in the air, but then the bugs would splatter all over my eyeballs directly, I suppose. A friend of mine driving a motorcycle once had a large bumble bee fly into his mouth. It went in directly and stung him on the back of his throat (just a small aside).
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 03:56pm PT
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Wes, Rammit has a thread going - why don't you go play over there?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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wes,
ignoring some of your posts is as difficult as ignoring that little poodle humping your leg. sometimes you just gots to kick it...
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
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Wes, I would but they won't vest me with such powers (go figure?).
Maybe ST can create a 'Kiddie Korner' for you and Rammit. We'll put LEB in charge to distract her from posting:
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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No one has ever called for censorship. I guess the ants can't or don't read what has been said and want only their own little burst of empty-headed insipidness.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Jul 19, 2007 - 04:41pm PT
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Whatever Wes.
Banned from Bouldering.com?
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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Jul 19, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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comparing weschrist to ragmeat is like comparing me to Ament.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jul 19, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
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Censorship is here, whether you notice it or not. Notice that no one posts snuff films or links to porn sites. It is a respect issue, that is "censorship." If you wanted to walk up to a family of five at Disneyland and tell them intimately about your last bowel movement, ill be the last to take away your right to do that. Unfortunately relying on a thread of decency can't run true through a population of 6 billion.
You are legally allowed to turn Native Son into a bolt ladder. Your allowed to walk into conversations and try to impress people by putting people down, I am sure we all remember what Jr. High was like. However the days of "atomic wedgies" are over. If you ruin an el cap route, you will have 10 homeless climbers ripping your skin off. If you walk into a crowd of people and act like an idiot, well, you will get treated like an idiot. Its a great thing really, self control is the great equalizer. Unfortunately a lot of these guys can't punch you through your keyboard, so we have the conflict.
It begins and ends on the part of the troll, however. Without Prometheus there would be no fire, without the apple tree Adam and Eve would be a slightly less boring version of a 'I Love Lucy' rerun (they ARE naked, you know). So the power is in the hands of the ants, a name I learned this week, but I think an even better one would be the gusts of wind. Higher and higher they go, never sated with the hot air they blow against the mountains, until they get so high that they can no longer reach the ground.
Wes is honest enough to explain himself away, and seems like a cool enough guy. I just wouldn't want that much bad mojo tied to myself. Internet forum or not, wild bill sounds like he just might punch a stranger in the face ;D
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