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Risk
Mountain climber
Minkler, CA
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Jul 13, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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John, You and me both. I'll bet the behemoth is so huge that all Americans would puke if they knew what's really going on.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 14, 2007 - 04:26pm PT
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Official published policy!
"MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE - IRAQ
BAGHDAD, IRAQ
APO AE 09342-1400
10 May 2007
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen serving in Multi-National Force-Iraq:
Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we - not our enemies - occupy the moral high ground. This strategy has shown results in recent months. Al Qaeda's indiscriminate attacks, for example, have finally started to turn a substantial proportion of the Iraqi population against it.
In view of this, I was concerned by the results of a recently released survey conducted last fall in Iraq that revealed an apparent unwillingness on the part of some US personnel to report illegal actions taken by fellow members of their units. The study also indicated that a small percentage of those surveyed may have mistreated noncombatants. This survey should spur reflection on our conduct in combat.
I fully appreciate the emotions that one experiences in Iraq. I also know firsthand the bonds between members of the "brotherhood of the close fight." Seeing a fellow trooper killed by a barbaric enemy can spark frustration, anger, and a desire for immediate revenge. As hard as it might be, however, we must not let these emotions lead us - or our comrades in arms - to commit hasty, illegal actions. In the event that we witness or hear of such actions, we must not let our bonds prevent us from speaking up.
Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone "talk;" however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact, our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.
We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings. Stress caused by lengthy deployments and combat is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign that we are human. If you feel such stress, do not hesitate to talk to your chain of command, your chaplain, or a medical expert.
We should use the survey results to renew our commitment to the values and standards that make us who we are and to spur re-examination of these issues. Leaders, in particular, need to discuss these issues with their troopers - and, as always, they need to set the right example and strive to ensure proper conduct. We should never underestimate the importance of good leadership and the difference it can make.
Thanks for what you continue to do. It is an honor to serve with each of you.
David H. Petraeus
General, United States Army
Commanding "
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 14, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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TGT
It's cool the General wrote that, even though it practically says "damage control after the survey" in it.
The official policy does count, but in any organization, everybody knows the real policy. When I used to work for a corporation, they used to say "Customer Service comes first, give them whatever they want." They didn't mention profits except as an aside in their value statements but all the managers knew what the real values were, Bottom line, numbers, and money!
Lois, did you read that article I pasted? Are you paying attention?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 14, 2007 - 10:06pm PT
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Well, Lois, that article did speak to the abuse of innocents that happens in war by the grunts.
But more importantly, you claim to be paying attention and that we are just irritated with you because you don't agree.
Lois, it because you don't pay attention.
Did you notice, for instance, this little paragraph in the article I posted
"Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004
"We were searching this rural farmhouse and this woman comes out and starts talking our ear off about how we weren't going to force her to think like "one of us" no matter what. She was really annoying and whatever we told her, she did something else. Finally I started to strangle her but the other guys pulled me off before she lost consciousness. I'm really sorry I didn't get to finish wringing her neck. I still remember her name. Lowiz or something. She was supposed to "one our side" A nurse or something" "
didn't it seem fishy to you that that one soldier regretted not strangling that "Lowiz" chick?
Busted again!
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 14, 2007 - 11:49pm PT
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Hmmmm, lets see.
"Captain A Krauley, 27, of Cragland, Arizona, 666 F Troop Division. Three Tours from Feb 2004 "
We have a captain A Krauley. who lives in "cragland" and is a member of "F troop".
We also have a nurse named Lowiz whom Krauley wanted to strangle because she never understood anything and was obstinate.
Hahahahahaha...... Good one Karl. Shucks Lois, I think you done been exposed. He even pointed it out to you and you still didn't get it.
................................
Please don't ever again say that I dislike you because you disagree with me. Your lack of comprehension is glaringly obvious. Its not so much that you don't understand, but that you obstinately stand by positions even after you are shown to be incorrect.
I also don't like how you assume things about people, such as your assumption that people don't like you because you disagree with them, I for one do not need you to agree with me. I have plenty of friends who I disagree with. My father is a devout Texas Republican and we get along great.
I would prefer that you understood what you were saying and what you were acting on. Such as understanding the implications of the directive which led to the atrocities of Abu Ghraib. This was a top down failure due to a poorly written directive. It was criminal. Especially considering how much effort people have gone to in the past to avoid these situations by writing such things as the Geneva Convention. Do you really think that they didn't know about such things as torture during world war 2?
The knowledge is there. It was hashed out by very wise people to avoid situations like Abu Ghraib and this administration deems to ignore it. This isn't just ignorant. It is criminal because the highest lawyers in the land, the ones suppose to protect us from our own government, signed off on it.
The corruption is rampant and you keep apologizing for them. Like somehow it is all just innocent mistakes.
You say you aren't heartless, but your own words say that there isn't anything to be especially upset about in Iraq. That it is all just a bunch of mistakes. To me that is heartless because many people are dying for a lie. Oli is correct. It is a sign of low intelligence to stoop to using swear words, so I will apologize for calling you a bitch. But I still think that many of your statements are heartless and sound like they come straight from Fox news.
Sorry Lois, but you have been exposed. And please do not stoop to saying that I want a gold star. That is childish and silly. I couldn't care less about " who" is right. I want all of our actions to be right and that can't happen if we continue to sleep.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2007 - 11:56pm PT
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Well John Moosie
If you ain't takin the gold star give it to me.
All I really ever wanted was a gold star.
I remember when the teach put em on everyones papers in little school.
It made everyone smile.
But where's my fukin gold star????????
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:09am PT
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You will have to ask Lois, she is the one who hands them out. Tell her you can have mine. :-)
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:27am PT
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For my very own. Wow, thanks. I always wanted my own black hole. They are very powerful. I could rule the world with a black hole. Thanks.
What colors do they come in?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 12:38am PT
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To match my evil pinko socialist ways. haha..
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 01:26am PT
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You guys are more obtuse than Lois. When will you learn?
-DenseJello
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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Thing is Jello, she like the attention and if we weren't entertaining her here, she's be somewhere else.
But yeah, I should have given up long ago, but sometimes it's fun playing catch.
Like earlier this week in the Capital Punishment thread when Lois was claiming she had no idea Crowley had admired a Republican candidate for President when she claimed he hated ALL Republicans. I did I little research and found the she had posted dozens and dozens of times to the thread in which Crowley admired Republican Ron Paul.
I'm just kinda fascinated with Lois since she's a nice person and really intellligent enough to to a nurse pract. and even teach it. I want to know what makes her tick and not tick and keep wondering if there's any "wake up" button I could find.
sorry to talk about you like you weren't there Lois. You understand.
Peace
Karl
Edit: Here's where I got her.
LEB> What "guy"? Are you referring to Crowley? If Crowley is supporting a particular presidential candidate then I have not participated in the thread on which he has spoken that content. I do not dog Crowley around on every thread. Unless he says his piece on whatever thread(s) I happen to be following (which is never more than 1-3 at any given time) - or else emails me about something - then I will be totally unaware of what he has written. Who exactly is Crowley supporting. This is the second reference someone has made to this concept.
As for Moosie and big vs small government, it is difficult to respond to anything John posts because he address so many points in one posting. John asks me so many questions that I can not keep track of them all. If you wish me to address a specific point which John has made then please ask John to repost that question (by itself!) or else repost it on his behalf. My whole issue with John is that he addresses entirely too much content at any one time. Again, exactly who is Crowley supporting and when/where did he make his views public concerning this issue?
___
Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall
Jul 7, 2007, 02:36pm PST
Author: LEB Paul who, Crowley? You are all always yelling at me for not using google enough. I can't google "Paul." Which "Paul?"
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Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall Jul 7, 2007, 02:38pm PST
Author: Karl Baba
It only matters 50% if you followed that thread (I'd be surprised if you hadn't posted to it!)
The fact is, you're so not paying attention that you could accuse him of hating all Republicans. Obvously, it aint so,
As for moosie, This is for you. Post it below and cropped short so she can respond
Peace
Karl
time wasted edit for Ron Paul by crowley
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=409117
Crowley defends Ron Paul. I guess you weren't following that thread even though I totally, honestly lost count of how many times you posted to that thread cause I started laughing too hard!
good thing you didn't post to this one
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=410748
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Re: Perhaps there IS a role for capital punishment, afterall Jul 7, 2007, 02:40pm PST
Author:
LEB> What thread, Karl? Please direct me to the thread wherein Crowley published his views on this matter?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:05am PT
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Word......
Sorry if I got mean. I'm trying to chill on that.
But Karl's stuff is pretty funny.
Aw.....ya just have to laugh.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:11am PT
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Karl, What really does impress me about Lois is her ability to carry on many activities at once. She can chat on several threads at the same time here on ST, while presumably keeping her work duties under control, and carrying on multiple e-mail conversations on the side. I believe she's a good person, just not worth engaging with on most of the topics she posts to here on ST. She adds very little to the conversation, when you look at it objectively, but we spend so much effort trying to "educate" her. She has indicated time and again that she's here as a gad-fly. She should be treated as such, no?
-Jeff
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:12am PT
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DMT is really good at multitasking too..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Well, Russ, there you have it. LEB = DMT. Inescapable...
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:18am PT
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Socrates role was that of a gadfly "to sting people and whip them into a fury, all in the service of truth."
So gadfly used in this way is intelligent and noble.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:20am PT
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I will admit to getting caught up in trying to wake her up, but I am also aware that her voice is a common one and therefore needs to be addressed. Just look at how many people voted for Georgie and look at how many people believed and still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11. These people need to hear something besides Fox news. If we don't speak to them, then who will. Bill O' Lie'ly ?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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You will first have to study for 100 years the the greatest logicians that ever existed for success.
Then you will be able to "wake the soul"
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:30am PT
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Seriously, I agree completely with what you say, John. I just think Lois is a lost cause and the effort could be better expended elsewhere. She has stated again and again that we will not change her mind about certain things. I believe her. Time to move on, I think.
EDIT: Werner. Don't you think comparing Lois's always-running commentary to Socrates astute and pointed questioning is a bit of a stretch?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 15, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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Then I have about 95 years to go. Shucks.
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