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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I don't think random non-yosar climbers should undertake rescue operations on El Cap- that's crazy. It's one thing to lend a hand if you are right there (we helped a party get off once) but a whole other matter to actually try to rescue someone in full on conditions. I am sure everyone involved did the best that they could do- they have proven that again and again through the years.
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Gene
climber
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Although self sufficiency, individually and as a community, is a worthy goal, any solution needs to solve more problems than it creates. Non-trained rock monkeys playing YOSAR is not a solution in storm conditions.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"...but can someone like Werner or Link please explain to us why nobody was up there sooner to save those poor buggers? The weather was likely to poor to fly the helicopter, but couldn't some YOSAR guys have gotten up there somehow? Jugging the East Ledges? Hiking the Falls Trail? Coming in from Tamarack Flat?
Well, I am definately NOT someone like Werner or Link. But I can tell you that I asked this same question in previous threads. First, the first YOSAR team did hike in from Tammarack Flat. Link led the charge through waist deep heavy snow, (he gave us all a debriefing at Sunday morning coffe after the tragedy), he said it was one of the hardest things he's done and it took them all night.
I won't speak for Werner and Link here, but basicaly what they answered, "We are not going to initiate rescues until someone asks for it. And unfortunately we wern't %100 sure there was a team in trouble until too late." (quote highly paraphrased from memory)
I was the person who told Keith first that I though somebody was still on the Nose on the first day of the storm. I rolled into the valley the evening the storm hit and saw the lights at Camp 6. The next day I climbed in the rain with "Salbrecher" (we are PNW climbers), we got down and were looking at the wall and Kieth came up and started scoping. We takled to him about who we saw, he jumped in his truck and took off.
You can't really see camp 6 from the Meadow, you need a better vantage point farther back, so we figured that's where he was heading. Two days later we saw rangers tracking down friends of the Japanesse team in the Lodge. Why they waited to try to find more info on the party I am not sure.
Basicaly I was told here to STFU and stop second guessing YOSAR, so I deleted all my posts on that old thread.
As far as someone just "running up the east ledges with some ropes to get them..."
I think this mindset really trivializes the situation. First of all East Ledges was a waterfall covered in ice and snow. What if those Japanesse were not capable of jugging out. Then they'd need to be hauled up. Not just a quick job for a couple of average (or even superhuman) climbers.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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cliffhanger, "25 - 50% of climbers should own a spotting scope to help out in gathering information."
I have some binocs does that count? While your attempt at getting climbers to look out after one another is noble, it really is a dog eat dog world out there. Throughout all life there is something very important to keep in mind.
If you cannot take care of your own self, you have zero chance of being to help someone else. Blaming anyone other than the climbers for this misfortune is out of line IMHO.
I wasnt there for this incident, but I have left the valley while some friends were up high in a storm. It is not a nice thing to be thinking about, but they themselves put them there. Nobody else...
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WBraun
climber
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Contrary to common knowledge the Japanese climbers were being tracked and watch up until the storm.
Now! If no one is yelling or asking for assistance then there will be no Yosar response.
Lambone - me and Lober were in the meadow checking the Japanese at 7 am that morning during the short break in the storm, way before you even got up, I bet.
Lober yelled up for a response and there were no cries for help at that time. You (Lambone) showed up much later in the day when things were getting "hot". From this point in time is where your observations of Yosar's strategy is being observed.
There is an underlining consciousness trying to second guess Yosar's strategy by some individuals even if they don't admit it they are thinking it subconsciously.
Easy to do now, later or even considering, now - "years later".
So let me re-emphasize! If no one is asking for assistance then there will be NO response. There was no request from the Japanese until it was too late.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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There are a couple of different things going on in this thread which are getting mixed up and causing some animosity among posters.
The first is that Yosemite is an amazing place where we are free to climb with few restrictions. The Park Service is pretty straight foward with the fact that they are not responsible for us, we are responsible for ourselves. Climbing is not regulated and we pretty much are on our own to make decisions on what, where, how and when to climb.
That's pretty amazing in my mind.
The second thing is that neither YOSAR, nor the Park Service, nor any of us, can read the minds of climbers on a climb. Are they in trouble or are they coping? They wait for some sign from the climbers before initiating a rescue. This is in keeping with the idea that climbers take on the responsibility for their own safety. But inspite of that, YOSAR is there to assist in rescuing teams in trouble who ask for rescue.
The fact that the Japanese climbers died is a terrible tragedy from which we can all learn:
1) Rescue by YOSAR is not guaranteed;
2) One must weigh the risks of choices being made before going up on the wall carefully as there are severe consequences possible, e.g. going fast and light, racing the weather, etc;
3) We can be as prepared as possible but still not be able to anticipate all of the things that can go wrong. As someone wrote above, these sorts of accidents are more often the result of a chain of events going wrong rather than one catastrophic thing happening.
We climbers have the freedom to make decisions ourselves, free from regulation. The consequences of making bad decisions are ours to deal with. Sometimes, YOSAR can help bail us out, but we cannot, nor should we expect that they will always be able to help.
I was saddened when I learned of the deaths of these climbers; I still am. But what is done is done, we can't get them back. They do provided yet another lesson for us to learn how we might avoid putting ourselves in a bad way.
That is their legacy to us. Not the endless and unanswerable "what if's"
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Gene
climber
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Well said, Ed.
Thanks.
GM
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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For a godless scientist that guy is purty darn spiritual.
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scabang
climber
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2 things: i drive a bus in there everyday and believe me if shite weather was forecast i would have been prepared. As it happens i spent ages untangling "last year's chains" much to the chagrin of the early mourning (sic) commuters. Secondly, and most sickeningly, xenophobia (perhaps ignorance is more applicable) reigned supreme. Japs? Oh, they probably didn't know what the phuck they were doing up there was the common assumption. 2 Yanks? Different story - oh what a tragedy.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Werner,
You may have missed it, but my post were replying to somebody who basically posted "why din't some climbers just go up there and get them...and why didn't Yosar get them sooner, or were alerted to them sooner."
He has since deleted his posts, so mine now seem kind of stupid and out of context.
If you read my post I don't think it's far off from what you are saying. Sorry if it seems I was second guessing you guys. I was just trying to explain to the clueless poster that yeah, people did know they were up there, and yeah they didn't ask for help until the last day.
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