Regional climbing rivalries: examples?

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bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Jun 27, 2007 - 10:33am PT

SNYD wrote: Oli said:"Eldorado prancers with "no pull?"

No is wasn't Pat that said that...it was Russ.

No pull...but we sure can push.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Jun 27, 2007 - 11:36am PT

Nothing but a bunch of stone laden sinners......Tsk, tsk. Twas the "usual provincial talent" comment that might have earned the high gravity gaff. Hard to say who can claim origination on the greatest of American rivalries, but is there any lingering doubt about the identity of the standard bearer for Team Colorado? On topic completely and too funny.

Mimi

climber

Jun 27, 2007 - 12:11pm PT

Pat, I'm not trying to speak for Russ, but when I agreed with him, it was purely in jest.

I have the utmost admiration for both CA and CO climbers. And it was your shot about the stone masters that prompted me to chime in.

Cheers,
Mimi

henny

Social climber

The Past

Jun 27, 2007 - 12:19pm PT

>> woodson vs. roubidoux.

You lookin' for a fight bvb?

philo

Trad climber

boulder, co.

Jun 27, 2007 - 12:36pm PT

I remember a brisk spring evening at the trail head for Granite Mountain in 1976. Three of us were on Spring break from the frozen wastelands of Western State College in Gunnison, Colorado. We had just returned from our 1st day of climbing there and were standing around Jennifer's dusty little veewee bug with Colorado plates contemplating the future. Suddenly up strides a walking ear to ear grin with muscles. "HOWDY" booms the stranger an obvious local. We introduce our selves to Stan Mish and get the royal welcome tour and all. Maybe it was because we were good climbers or perhaps because we had mutual friends including locals Rusty B and Dave Lovejoy but I never felt the slightest animosity towards us outsiders. We were not invaders but accepted and appreciated like old friends.
Stan and I became friends and did some really nice climbing over a few years til life paths and other distractions took us on separate compass bearings. But I still remember the warmth of that "HOWDY".

In contrast a year or so later at the end of an incredible learning curve and on a hot streak I went to the Valley sans rope mate. Camp four was a veritable cold shoulder to me! I was climbing hard and solid and I don't think I was arrogant. Still, with few exceptions like Californian Alan Bartlett and Coloradans Aaron Walters and Keith(soon to be a Californian)Loeber, connecting with a partner was problematic at best. Approaching someone unknown and asking if they wanted to do a particular route felt more like I was the nerd asking the hot chick to dance. To this day I still don't like asking strangers to climb or hot chicks to dance. Maybe I was overlooked because I was just one more young Coloradan rock rat and thus unworthy. Perhaps not having a partner to begin with made me seem untrustworthy. Possibly finding out I'd been spending most of my time in the Black Canyon meant I was unbelievably weird and should be avoided at all costs. I really don't know what the reason but there weren't any warm "HOWDYS".
Later and most of a state farther south I again got adopted by the local crag-munity. Taken in like the stray cat I was and fed a nourishing diet of kibbles-n-sandbags and occasionally a meager dessert of humble pie. Still I met some of the finest folks I've ever known; Mona Stahl and her sons, Chris Gonzales, Maria Cranor, Randy Vogel, Jim Angione and many others who accepted me even if I was an outsider.

Rivalries are interesting. Hey babe wanna dance?

henny

Social climber

The Past

Jun 27, 2007 - 01:00pm PT

Something as one sided as "rubidoux vs. woodson" can't be debated, or even considered a rivalry.

Maysho

climber

Truckee, CA

Jun 27, 2007 - 01:03pm PT

Regarding rivalry and competition,
During the period from 77-81 when I was lucky enough to spend a lot of my time as a Camp 4 resident hard boy, we had a lot of connection and camaraderie with our generation mates from other areas - as Tami recollects. Like birds on an annual migration, our friends from Colorado, Squamish, Australia or wherever cycled through each spring. Folks like Peter Croft and Tami Knight, Mark Wilford, Pat Adams, Beth Bennett, Dan and Jim Michaels, Java, Darryl Hatten, Grandstaff and many more fit right into the local scene and added a lot to it. My memory is that we were all pretty laid back, intense about climbing but not so much that it interefered with always having a great time with friends.

During the mid 80's, the vibe got a lot more intense. Though I had nothing but respect for the achievements of my friend Bacher and his disciples, the intensity of the soloing and runout culture left little room for anything but attitude. As a guide during those years I felt like I always had to be somewhat of an ambassador for any visitors and I was really bummed by some of the treatment that European friends received when they came to the park.

During the next era, I was quick to embrace sport climbing for two reasons, first I could crank plenty of pitches while sharing a great day with my then 6 year old son, and second, the attitude got a lot more friendly at the crag, everyone just out trying their best and trying to learn.

It was facinating to be a participant when climbing became overtly competitive in an organized way, (through the visionary efforts of Jello!) At the 2nd Snowbird comp, the first with qualifiers open to anybody, the climbers left standing in the final qualifiers were members of that late 70's laid back generation, Pat Adams, Mark Wilford, Alex Lowe etc. Most of the stronger, but with more to prove, new generation of sport climbers fell off in nervousness. It was interesting to share that short era travelling with old camp 4 friends, on tour with the Jello show. Of course the young ins figured it all out, and the walls got steep and more accessible to the young and strong but footwork challenged.

Jello, when are you going to organize a Masters tour?

Peter

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jun 27, 2007 - 01:19pm PT

Philo, Aaron Walters is really from Beloit (he told me that was the sound of a turd hitting the liquid in a chemical toilet)Wisconsin;admittedly, via, estes Park.

Oli

Trad climber

Fruita, Colorado

Jun 27, 2007 - 02:22pm PT

Jim Karn spent plenty of time in Colorado, as a student of mine, in fact, prior to his shooting out into the world of sport climbing celebrity... Many of us Boulder Coloradans came from "someplace" other than Boulder.

Seems some still struggle with my "provincial" comment. That was not meant as a reduction in the greatness of any climber. Hardly. It was to say that every area in America had and has its "stonemasters," its genius climbers. It was to say the Californians weren't/aren't alone in doing some incredible climbing. And it might have been to imply that often climbers in one single area (name any area you wish) go about mastering and developing the climbs of that area but are not so aware of what is going on in the rest of the world. Many don't go and do the real testpieces in other areas. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule, and it doesn't mean those who are mostly limited in experience to their own worlds couldn't venture out successfully, but I have seen horrendously talented climbers from California flail on routes in Eldorado because they weren't used to that kind of rock or that kind of climbing. Likewise I've seen brilliant climbers from Colorado, or Europe, or anywhere, flail in Yosemite for the same reasons. It simply is presumptuous to assume that because a certain band of climbers does phenemonal things that they are the elite of the climbing world, when in fact there are equally fine climbers in many parts of the world. The provincial aspect is a matter of perspective, rather than ability. You could be the best climber in the world perhaps but be provincial: i.e., unaware of the other best climbers in the world in other places. For years, from a distance, people dismissed Gill as "only a boulderer," when in fact they were so out of his league as a rock climber they couldn't even imagine what it would have taken to get half way to where he was/is. The Californians more or less felt they were at the cutting edge during the '60s, and they were indeed in many respects, although Greg Lowe was leading 5.11+ in good style in 1965, and the first 5.11 routes came to Utah, Colorado, and South Dakota. Every time some or other group starts sending messages that suggest they feel they are the standard of excellence, they tend to negate the achievements of others. We've seen it over and over, starting with our original heroes in the Valley who felt they were the elite, until Kor showed up and halfed their wall times. Or again, as Henry visited and led Butterballs, Fish, etc., soloing Sentinel in the time it takes me to rope up at the bottom (well, actually, Pratt and I did that Sentinel route in twice the time Henry did it, but...still that was fast). And that's the way it is. We get provincial. All of us. In every climbing area, we get provincial, focused on our own world, thinking the world centers around us. I'm as guilty as the next (or was, back when I was a climber), and we always learn our lesson when someone comes along, such as Wolfgang or Edlinger, or Croft... from the outside and shows us, once again, that there are other worlds out there. No one has more respect and love for the Stonemasters than do I. I view all of them as my friends. But if I can't cite my friends for a small bit of occasional provincialism, then forgive me. In no way is it or was it intended to put anyone down or dismiss any aspect of their climbing, rather simply to remind them and all of us that we sometimes have a narrower view than desirable when it comes to defining that strange world of achivement.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Jun 27, 2007 - 02:33pm PT

Yeah, what he said!

We used to hang back and laugh at the know-it-all greenies when they would lieback, then fall off, then call sandbag on, the cracks @ Vedauwoo.

... a bunch of those guys got better, though.

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Jun 27, 2007 - 04:23pm PT

Hey Ghost. Thanks for writing that. Makes me feel good to know that my real interest in your thought-provoking talk made you feel better, too. I had no idea you were nervous!

Cheers, Jeff

Tarbuster

climber

right here, right now

Jun 27, 2007 - 07:40pm PT

Damn straight Russ,
And don't forget to toss the French on that ash heap too...

When it came to re-inventing pop rock culture and laying down the wicked, overwrought heretical bombast, the Sheepbuggers and tres femme Joe Boys reigned supreme.

Never you mind Oli, this isn't about climbing here, ('cause of course you are spot on in that regard), and besides, anyone in earshot wanted a piece of the action, whether they knew any better or not, even that ruffian Werner fell to the fallow and uproarious ways...

Dimes

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Jun 27, 2007 - 11:26pm PT

In regards to rivalries, does there not have to be at least a little competition-rubidoux vs woodson encompasses none of that. I got so tired of carrying crying towels with me and listening to all the whining and complaining about the ratings. Ya, old style slabby 5.10 is hard and 5.11 even harder and more desperate and at 5.11+ Henny and I would think of doffing our tennis shoes and putting on climbing shoes. And we were still warming up when the mangled masses laying in the dirt would cry UNCLE. Pathetic!!

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Jun 27, 2007 - 11:40pm PT

i got yer pink bug right here, boys. now don't make me break out my lie detector.....

swear to god, it's 5.10a. on the outside, that is.

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Jun 28, 2007 - 01:09am PT

Maysho- my feeble old brain is almost far gone enough to consider inviting all you (somewhat) old farts here to Ogden, for a reunion and (s)ho(e)(w)down. Sooooo much work and pain for those Snowbird world-cup events, but maybe it would be a lot easier for a more casual Old-timer Climber Rendezvous and SushiFest? Let me finish up with this ice tower thing we've got going here, then we could talk about it. We already have a great new Entreprises wall that just openned.

-SuckerJello

henny

Social climber

The Past

Jun 28, 2007 - 01:22am PT

"Lie Detector"? Been there, done that.

You're going to have to hit harder than that. C'mon bvb, hit me with your best shot...

Oh, and why is it that you keep mentioning that "Pink Bug" warm up problem? Sounds like you're in need of the classic Rubidoux "Psychoanalysis"...

Oli

Trad climber

Fruita, Colorado

Jun 28, 2007 - 04:07am PT

Sorry, Rick, to see this thread go so downhill. I was thinking, though, that there might have been healthy, good rivalries. I'm trying to think of some, where people pushed each other competitively, yet there remained mutual respect. One that comes to mind is with Greg Lowe and me. We both had heard of each other in the early-mid 1960s, and a mutual friend kept telling us about each other, so we were inspired by each other's climbing. Greg pushed hard, so that he could try to do as tough or tougher things as I was doing. And it was the same for me. I trained, with Greg in the back of my mind often. And no matter how well Greg climbed, I continued to admire him. He and I spoke not too long ago, both of us has-beens now of a high order (although far more in my case), and I told him, regarding all the speculation about our abilities back then and who was better, it was my strong conviction that he was by far the better climber. He said to me he felt I was. That shocked me. Ultimately it didn't matter. My rival was as generous as he was able, and at no point through the years had we lost respect for one another.

snyd

Sport climber

Lexington, KY

Jun 28, 2007 - 07:21am PT

Jebus Oli, if one read only your posts one might think that the world ended in 1973 and that when it ended only you, Jello, and Royal Robbins were in it.
"And no matter how well Greg climbed, I continued to admire him."
What is your problem? Newsflash pal, most beings on the planet like to see their fellow humans do well. Oh yeah, we make jokes and talk smack but there is nothing cooler than seeing someone absolutely hike a route that had you in tears! It's too bad that you dimwits back in the 60s didn't have real talent like a 12 year old Katie Brown lurking around to knock your gigantic egos into the dirt at the base of Redgarden Wall.
"Greg pushed hard, so that he could try to do as tough or tougher things as I was doing." Pfffffffffft! You think a lot of yourself don't you? Perhaps Greg pushed because that is what people do. Intrinsic reward is always the best reward.
Oh yes, the thread headed downhill! The second that has been candidate for the next episode of intervention, BVB pokes his crusty skull into the mix where else can the conversation go but straight to the gutter?