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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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Ricardo wrote "for example .. the nipple pitch .. i'd rate that pitch C3 or A1 ..
in order to climb it C3 .. in my opinion .. you have to be willing to do the upside down cam hooks .. -- and for a long time .. with a bad landing into a corner if you blow .. "
For the record, the last time I climbed Zodiac the nipple pitch had nothing fixed from the beginning of the traverse to near where it gets wide. I got it clean without using a single cam hook (cause I wanted to leave every piece to make it easy on my second)
Aliens and Offset Brass nuts, Seemed like an ultra clean fall unless you blew out the whole pitch. It was tricky no doubt but I'm not super hard aid man either
I have a lot of respect for going as clean as possible. I haven't nailed on a wall route in a long time.
I have a lot of respect for what the Clean up accomplished but my main reservation seems to have come true, that it would initiate a new round of nailing on a route that was reguarly done clean more often than not.
This is a real issue. When it was being done clean with fixed gear, no additional damage was being done, now it is? How come that's not a problem? If folks were chipping holds on EL Cap because they couldn't make the free moves at 5.13, that would be a problem right? It would be a problem if they were drilling to get around A4 hook moves right?
It would be a problem if folks were gluing holds and chipping pockets to climb. Folks would say "why not leave the route for the day that people with sufficient skill and courage could climb it?"
Same with Zodiac. It's just a fine line. Quit damaging it! If it's going to be a trade route, let's put a fixed piece in the places where folks just "HAVE" to nail and preserve the stone for when the clean gear gets better (as it already has over the years)
If it's not going to be a trade route, go do it clean or wait until you can. Can we get some community consensus on this? It's hypocritical to get all aggro on clipping, bolting, and other rock damage and figure, heck, now that we're aid climbing, anything goes.
The damage on EL Cap Routes from nailing and heading will one day be viewed as a sad loss that was never given due consideration.
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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Good on ya, mate.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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"For the record, the last time I climbed Zodiac the nipple pitch had nothing fixed from the beginning of the traverse to near where it gets wide. I got it clean without using a single cam hook (cause I wanted to leave every piece to make it easy on my second)"
ditto that.
I soloed it after the Hubers free climb, and they had cleaned pretty much the whole pitch aside from maybe 2 fixed angles. didn't use a single cam hook.
funny anecdote...
In '98 we managed the route clean. yes there was some fixed stuff in key places. One of the cruxes was the Nipple Pitch. We sent my buddy Jason (RIP)up on the pitch. He learned to trad climb earlier that spring and had about 3 months expreince placing cams and nuts. Up to that point he had only led C1.
He charged up the start of the pitch, but about halfway through he came to a halt and started whinning. Then begging and pleading for the pins. We said, "F-U, do it clean or come down!"
He hated us, but sucked it up and pulled it off using Ball-Nuts (we had no cam hooks then). Took him about 4 hours but he made it. Goes to show what a nOOb can pull off with the right encouragement.
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 13, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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I climbed Zodiac May 10-13 and thought it was one of the funnest routes I've done on El Cap. Cheers to the cleanup crew for making it an exciting climb, again. We fixed the first 4 pitches and had some issues rapping the shortest straw anchors. The topo says rap using 3 50s or 2 60s, but doesn't mention tying the 2 60's together. We ended up rapping about 40m to an anchor off to the climbers left, only to find that the next rap didn't reach the ground. We got back on the first line for a full 70m stretcher to the next anchor, which is the only other anchor we could find between the top of 4 and the ground. There is no way you could reach it with a 60m rope from the top of 4, so make sure to tie them together.
Anyways, we spent two nights on the wall under the nipple and at peanut, both awesome bivies, nailed maybe 10 times total on pitches 7,8,10, and 12. My partner whipped and touched down on the black tower when a cam hook blew. The only thing left on his aiders was the intact loop of webbing meaning the cam hook either broke or the knot pulled throught the hole, but it sounded more like it snapped. Has anyone ever broken a cam hook before? It's not like my partners some fat ass or anything but it definitly made an odd sound. After that he nailed 2x on the pitch, one piece being the large beak that ricardo cleaned. Thanx for cleaning up the slop man,I couldn't get that thing out without jacking the cable since it was nailed flush in a corner. The cruxes of the route were pitches 7, 8, and 10. About halfway up pitch 8 there was some bird beaking and hooking that led to a blind placement out right that was pretty exciting. I was able to do most of the nipple pitch clean and counted about 5-6 cam hooks in a row on the traverse. I nailed once about 20ft up from the titty where the scars get pretty bad. I thought the vertical part up to the belay was tougher than the traverse. It's definitely a long pitch and I can't understand how the f*#k people free climb that sh#t. All in all, every pitch had something to offer and it's one of my most memorable routes. I'll try and post some pics when I get out of this damn office at 5!!!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
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mswan,
you should post that usefull fixing beta on the route beta page.
fwiw- A head chisel can work well for tapping out a beak that is stuck in a corner.
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 14, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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Lambone, thanks for the tip. I'll also add the rap details to the Zodiac beta page.
I disagree with some of the previous postings about the fall danger on the Nipple pitch. It seemed to be well protected by the bolts leading up to the crack and even though I decided to use six cam hooks in a row, the distance between each placement wasn't that far since it's traversing. I don't think there's a chance of hitting the corner, then again my partner and the portaledge were in the way! There's some really good cam placements and brass nuts if you look around closely on the traverse and nailing definitely isn't mandatory.
Ricardo, your right, you could definitely hit the ground on the first pitch if a head blew, but at the same time, slam testing heads is only going to make even a good head weaker, in my opinion. I think slowly weighting them and bouncing in place is usually good enough to see if it's going to hold your body weight. You'd have to really f*#k up to shock load it, so why shock load test it.
Can someone tell me how to add photos to these messages. Cheers
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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For you guys who are playing around with pincamming with regular or sawed off angles, a couple of notches in the rails with a carborundum rod saw (~1/8" wide) would allow a copperhead of appropriate size and shape to nest inside the angle.
The single cable in the notch of choice would allow several options with respect to applied load and leverage on the hand placed piton. The cable may also be sized to slip into the deeper crack below the scar if one is present.
A hand set piton stack with favorable leverage has a much better chance of holding.
The shaped copperhead could also add some tapered soft metal contact area to enhance the staying power of the placement.
The concept should be transferable to stiff nailing on overhanging terrain also which is why I originally thought about it. Webbing tie-off loops inevitably creep away from the hinge point and worsen the torque on a driven pin. Go light on the notched angles though since the notches will act like teeth and likely increase wear.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 03:00am PT
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msswan --
.. thanks for the post ..
to me it proves how different folks can experience the same pitches differently ..
.. i thought i was about to meet my maker if i blew it on the nipple .. but that was because i hooked and backcleaned all the way from the start of the traverse (where teh fixed pins stop) -- all the way to the fixed nut (the only fixed piece on that pitch when i did it) .. i did this so my cleaner would have an easier time (just lower out and jug) .. (the fixed nut is about 2/3 of way from the last fixed pin -- to the bolt on the nipple)
then i found the part after the nipple to be very easy .. (i thought it was C1) -- but msswan found that part harder .. so its all very subjective .. he even thought it was neccesary to nail .. while i got through with mostly offset aliens, offset brassies, and a cam hook.
.. at any rate -- i loved the route because i felt like i climbed it in the best style that i could climb it .. (which means 4 hammered placements for my skill/sack ability) ..
.. -- i hope that the same is true for everyone else .. that you had a good time because you did your best.. which is one of the reasons i go up there.. (to be challenged, and to do my best) ..
.. may not be the reason other people climb .. but whatever ..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:57am PT
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"Claiming that using fixed gear or stick clipping negates a clean ascent is just as weak a sauce as saying the same about nutting pin scars. Its just a rationalization to justify a narrow mind."
The problem is that different parties dont find the route in the same conditions.
Most elcap routes have sections with small fixed heads, this include the easy route Lurking Fear, the heads is going to blow someday and clean climbing without them could be impossible. Should people that dont freeclimb 5.13 not be allowed to do lurking fear then, because it is easy clean aid now?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:34am PT
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Ah, but if people didn't hammer on a route that went clean then it WOULDN'T change between ascents.
Oh sure, a critical piece of fixed gear might blow, but once replaced the route is still the same.
My comment was directed at the selfish bastards that use weak rationalizations to justify destructive behavior.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:14pm PT
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This is the information age and the Zodiac is a case in point. Since the route was cleaned up and maintenance done, its condition is fairly well defined with respect to the number of fixed heads, etc. The situation is not ambiguous. The route has been done hammerless and/or clean by several committed parties. So far folks have been open and forthcoming about nailing where they felt it was necessary. So far no report from Ammon and company to add to the discussion.
Not to sound Lennonesque here but imagine no more placement degradation, can see it if you try. The Nipple pitch has been done clean by a greenhorn so that leaves The Black Tower as the pitch in contention. What is required is a shift away from trade route entitlement to respect for community and legacy.
The Zodiac was as hard as any route on the planet when Charlie Porter opened it up solo. Over time it has become the short, default "casual route" on the SE face. This view has been spread by word of mouth and needs to be reversed that way. Peer pressure and concerned advice plain and simple.
There are plenty of moderate lines on the Captain to learn on and enjoy. The Zodiac needs to be known by its clean rating first and foremost. It seems like C3+ is a fair technical and engagement rating overall. What say you successful clean parties? If you can't handle that grade then respectfully wait until your skills improve before doing the route and yourself a disservice. No climber is entitled to needless, impatient and regrettable destruction. We all have the capacity to write our names anywhere and anytime with a can of spray paint, but none of us are entitled or have the right to behave this way when something of acknowledged value is being desecrated or damaged by the act. Valley stone is too precious to write off to fear or convenience.
It has been said before, "better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs."
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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you know .. i agree with the idea that you should climb in the best style possible ..
.. and i agree that a clean style is better than a hammered style ..
.. but it makes me sick the way you guys go about professing that routes like zodiac are clean only ..
.. i think that at this point i am a decent aid climber, and don't have to wait for my skills to improve to climb zodiac .. -- and i'll tell you there was 2 placements that needed to be nailed .. a head and a beak ..
.. by your description .. i should have waited until i could levitate .. -- bunch of crap ..
.. what is true, is that my head placement (which should hold for at least a few seasons) ... is going to help another party of short folks (5'7") get through that section and claim it can be done clean .. -- placing that beak probably opened up a head placement in the future .. -- so that section will eventually be fixed for the average climber ..
.. bunch of b.s. .. i'd rather see folks saying -- climb in the best style possible -- climb clean .. rather than spewing crap about climbing ability, and waiting until X ...
.. or perhaps what you are professing is .. climb without pitons .. go ahead and use heads .. -- haha .. what a bunch of crap ... --
.. the funny thing is that the folks who come onto this thread and post -- most of them have climbed this route clean .. or nearly clean. -- I've had conversations in the meadow with folks who really nailed the sh#t out of the zodiac -- but they are not on this forum .. so steve should really go on a road show to change folks minds .. (one party i talked to nailed about 30 times .. -- mostly on the nipple) ..
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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I got the Black Tower pitch clean when there was zero fixed gear within 50 feet of the tower. I'll admit it was tricky and dangerous but it would only take one or two fixed pieces to make it very reasonable safety wise.
peace
Karl
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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I wonder what would happen if Chris Mac published the next zodiac topo without any iron in the rack list .. ?? ..
.. steve this would be the first step to getting folks to stop nailing on the zodiac ..
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
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Steve, you seem to have some kind of axe to grind with me but obviously know nothing about me or my climbing ethics, which are very close to yours. Your message is very worthy; your delivery needs a lot of help.
Taken from the American Alpine Journal (2000):
"Cedar Wright and Ammon McNeely then made another quick ascent of the Zodiac in 8:42 in May. This record was especially memorable as it was onsight and hammerless. Their secret was a lot of camhooking – up to 50 feet out from good pro."
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
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But, Steve, the one thing you continue to fail to take into consideration is the inequality of the individuals who rack up to climb it. Even if the route stays imutably the same -- completely unaltered from party to party so we're all dealing with the same variable -- we, as climbers all have different abilities and skill levels. I'm not Ron Olevsky and will never have his talent or experience. Ever! If, for example, someone 6'8" came along and did the FA of Podigal Sun, using the same top stepping technique that Ron uses to drill angles up the first pitch the route wouldn't be climbable by anyone other than giants.
Take that same disparity to any route -- even if we're all using the same technique we're never all going to find the same placements on any given pitch. My reach or technique may have me making 40 placments on a pitch, while Ricardo's has him only needing to make 35. We're all going to find ourselves in a different situation from the leader who went before us. Hell, I've done that first pitch of Zodiac 4x now! And each time it was different for me. In part due to addition/subtraction of fixed gear, but also due to using different gear in different ways. And for the record, the only nailing I've ever done in my four pathetic attempts on Zodiac was a head placement at the end of the bolts just off the deck on the first pitch in the post-cleanup era.
My other contention about our individual differences is weight. Now, I'm not about to get in the aiders any time soon 'cause, well, let's just say I've gained a few lbs., but my normal fight'n weight is around 200 lbs, plus another 25-30 lbs of gear. I can't defy the laws of physics! What holds YOU may not hold ME. That's not to say I'm going to take the easy route and not try my absolute damn best to climb as clean as possible, but if my choice on P7, or P8, or anywhere else is between nailing or bailing -- I'm probably going to nail. If the difference between a bail and a send is a couple of pins, I'm going to hammer the pins and not loose a wink of sleep.
Lest you think I'm talking about nailing out of convenience or lack of committment to climbing clean, here's a quick story:
On my second attempt at Zodiac I headed up the first pitch thinking all the fixed gear from the year before would still be there, including a fixed LA at the roof that gets you over to the anchor. I led the pitch uneventfully until I got to the spot where the seam hits the roof and you're one move away from the bolts. It would have been a clip and go with the LA there, but there was no longer any fixed gear in the roof at all. No problem -- I still had one cam hook on the rack (left one as pro way below) so I clipped it to a daisy chain and reached up to place it inverted in the roof. As I gave it a test yank it ripped, the biner slapped against the wall, and the cam hook dropped to the deck. Oops. I spent the next two hours trying every piece of gear I had left on my rack to try to find a combo that would get me one move over to the freakin anchors. I actually contemplated dyno-ing for it. I was able to get two lobes of the second smallest WC Zero to stick but it wouldn't hold my whole body weight. I blew it and fell (swung, really) three or four times. I went back to trying to hook a crusty, crumbling edge, but it just kept breaking off. I finally got one foot in an aider on the hook and was able to distribute some of my weight onto it while I slowly weighted the crappy 2-lobe Zero, and made a swing for the anchor bolt. The whole thing blew as I clipped the bolt.
2 hours to move five feet, all in the name of climbing clean. If I can make it work, I will. Sometimes, it just ain't in the cards. The thing is, I'll bet you (Steve) have a few climbs in your past where you had to nail where others didn't. I'm sure you wouldn't call it "selfish" -- you'd call it necessary, just like most of us would.
Ed
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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".. bunch of b.s. .. i'd rather see folks saying -- climb in the best style possible -- climb clean .. rather than spewing crap about climbing ability, and waiting until X ...
.. or perhaps what you are professing is .. climb without pitons .. go ahead and use heads .. -- haha .. what a bunch of crap ..."
nice rant ricardo! ya know I don't really care if some people have to pound a pin or two for their saftey or whatever. I did Zod clean (with partners) and also nailed on it when soloing.
I guess what bothers me is that since it was "cleaned" a lot of people think that it has all kinds of mandetory nailing on it now. I have friends and have talked to climbers who want to do Zodiac just because it's a realatively easy route they "can" pound pins on.
Otherwise I agree with your attitude, climb as clean as you can and respect the rock. I just try to keep in mind that it has been done clean so I should try really hard to make it go. Some people aren't willing to invest the time and energy, and fear to climb it clean.
Some people are on the other extreme and if they can't do it clean they bail. I thank that is a pretty noble style...I can't say I'm that commited to it to force a rappel from halfway up El Cap.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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I don't think anyone on this thread wants to go up and nail the crap out of Zodiac.
I do however think that there are many posters who are thick headed (and as a result narrow minded) when it comes to the issue of "fudging".
"I'll try, but if I get freaked its whacking time"
Its this attitude of entitlement that will prove to be the downfall of such routes. Mark my words this can't go on forever. When a route like Zodiac gets blown out to the point that people are getting repeatedly hurt because of blown placements then there are going to be some changes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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Yeah, thats it Mike, I'm stonewalling so that I can reel in the profits and have another villa in the Rivierra.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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i'm gunna go up on zodiac and nail down all the beer i can fit in the haul bags.
its my godamn vacation and i'll do as i please!
thats the only nailing i'm really plannin on.
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