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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 25, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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"That can be limiting, but it made me a better climber, which is not a statement about my technical capability."
Bravo!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 25, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
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Roger...I don't agree with what Jardine did on the Nose...I just don't hate him for it!
John S is downplaying the important role that he played in the history of rock climbing. It would be safe to say that many great climbers (Henry Barber, John Bragg, Steve Wunsch, Charlie Fowler, Kevin Bein and others) were influenced by him and his style of climbing.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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Hey, Bob,
I don't hate Ray for chipping the Nose. And, I think that what he taught everyone with his hang-dogging style is very important to acknowledge.
I do hate the arrogance, and the poison it has created at various times, that allowed that to happen, but as I stated up-thread there are lots of examples of that arrogance taking hold of really talented climbers. It is pretty clear that with more time, it all fades.
What I wish for is a way to have a reconciliation amongst those of us who all climbed during that time. It always pains me here on ST when Jim's name comes up and someone mentions his chipping. Jim was so much more than those lapses. I believe the same of Ray. Nobody’s perfect. Well……
But it is a very sensitive topic, as you can see by the vigor of some of these posts. There are always two or more sides to every story. And I know that it is still a sore point for Jim.
You know what I do hate, clashing color styles and short suit pants. Just to bring it back to the important stuff, you know.
Best, Roger
PS: You are right about John's influence. It was huge.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 25, 2007 - 06:01pm PT
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Nearly my whole being is defined & sustained by climbing and my time, my day in the sun, my formative experience upon the anvil of stone and the requisite communal immersion is veritably passed, yet here we have some of the greats from a full generation prior to my own coming out and speaking, people such as Haan, Stannard, Ament, and they are speaking eloquently and incisively with a passion seemingly undiminished from that of their best and earliest years. This is so much more than the usual circular rabbel encountered in a typical bolt wars thread. It is proof that as the decades pass for those few who have invested and striven to accomplish great things, their opportunity to an examined life can really put out in words something approximating wisdom.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 25, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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-and cheer up Roger,
I'm sure you can in a future thread sneek up once again and take a run at our rich supply of fashion oddities.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 25, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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Ed wrote: We can only go on now with our own memories and serve as examples, those who still are a part of the climbing community, to the people now writing the history after ours.
The great thing about threads like this is that those of us who were a part of the history can set the story straight.
Personal attacks do more to distort the facts than to set them straight.
For me...at this point in life I would much rather built bridges than burn them.
Roger...Check this out about Americans and lying.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0623/p15s01-lire.html
Later, Bob
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 25, 2007 - 07:43pm PT
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Werner, the Lowe prototypes of the Friend were not his earlier cams which began coming out in 1967. The Friend prototypes came in 1972. He actually shared his designs with Ray during an agreed confidential meeting. Ray decided not to keep the secret and took the ideas and went to work. Ray had been developing an archetypal Friend of his own and now found Lowe's ideas of immense help. Greg found it a bit strange when suddenly his ideas were produced for commercial sale. Lowe even had patented those ideas in 1975, prior to the Jardine release of Friends. Ray simply added his own retraction system. The resulting lawsuit brought by Lowe was settled out of court. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, but it seemed an interesting detail to it all. In the business world, I have learned, people do this kind of thing all the time. Soon after Pollack nuts came out, for example, other bigger companies produced their own versions, simple plagiarisms. This seems the acceptable thing nowadays. I don't understand it. By the way, if you want to talk about a true master climber, think of Greg Lowe. No one quite in his class, for years.
Pat
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 25, 2007 - 08:04pm PT
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Pat wrote: By the way, if you want to talk about a true master climber, think of Greg Lowe. No one quite in his class, for years.
If you want to find a true master human being in the climbing world...John Gill might be a good place to start.
Pat..how are you feeling??
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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Thanks for the history of the "friends", Pat.
I heard about the controversial cam debacle between Lowe and Ray even back then.
itso, your logic is really poor.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 10:33pm PT
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After they compromised ....?
Like hangdoging is a sin?
It's only bad if I tell you I fired the "Rambling Rose" and later you hear It took me 10 years of hangdoging to do it.
And who really lead that pitch Kevin?
In the Meyers guide it says ...... hehehehe
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 11:05pm PT
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Coltrane played his horn.
I push the button on my steering wheel and a melidious tone comes out of the front grill.
No one appreciates my nice horn music, they just flip me the bird.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2007 - 11:18pm PT
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Hi Kevin,
I make a distinction between popularizing something and versus breaking an old mold and showing the benefits of a new way of doing something, even if no one follows you. Ray, in my opinion, could never have popularized hang-dogging because he never had the stature in the Valley. As you say, he was ridiculed for his style but the climbs were very hard and certainly Ron and John did not quibble with that.
But Ray was the first serious climber to embrace hang-dogging, get impressive results, and could not have cared less what the rest of us thought. I wasn't around when Ron started hang-dogging, but I can certainly believe that if Ron started doing it, everyone would have forgotten about how ridiculous Ray had seemed and started hanging with Ron.
Best, Roger
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 25, 2007 - 11:40pm PT
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As to bringing hangdogging to the Valley or CA...what about Max and Mark.
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 25, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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Werner, there isn't any logic to reporting the facts. How one wishes to interpret the facts is their own business, I suppose. Don't shoot the messenger, though. I just tell it like I knew it to be. It doesn't require too much reasoning. I probably could have left off the "theft" idea, though. Who cares? I just think people should keep promises, as Ray's to Greg, but then I'm sure I haven't always kept all of my own, so onward and better luck next time. It's a zoo, and we're all in it.
Kevin, wow, so good to hear your "voice" again. Tom Ruwitch and I put up Rain in the spring of 1967, specifically during the worst rainstorm of the spring. We had searched far and wide for a good cagoule, for climbing in the Valley, a cagoule that wouldn't leak and would stay warm in a downpour. The weather report was rain, and it came in torrents, so out we went to test the cagoules. I had seen that line, and we climbed it. On that blank headwall up above I placed a 1/4-inch bolt, and I was afraid even to hang on it, but it was not only raining but the torrential river down the Bastille was directly on top of me. It was the same as climbing up through a waterfall. After climbing the West Face of Sentinel and El Cap and some other things, I gave that cagoule to a coatless hobo when I rode the freight trains home. Anyway years later I saw you up there leading Rain. Such a different climb without water! I never play with anyone. I was telling you honestly to beware of that bolt and try to back it up, but you were in such strong control I realized I didn't have to worry. You really sailed up that beautifully, a real talent. The times I did the route free I always found nice little nut placements in obscure places.
Pat
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2007 - 11:49pm PT
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Pat the poor logic part was not meant towards you but to the poster "itso" in this thread with his post above yours.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 26, 2007 - 12:07am PT
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Coltrane played his horn and I loved it. I like to think I understand it a little more every time I hear it, but that could be a conceit.
I've come a long way in hangdogging, but the first time I watched Todd S do it circa '78 was nothing like the first time I heard 'Favorite Things!' dogging is more like pullups.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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May 26, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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Oli's statement of the development of spring-loade cams is true, although Greg applied for the patent in 1972, and it was granted in '73, not '75.
But to the point of Ray's character:
I was there in '71 or '72 at my brother Mike's house in Gunnison, CO. Mike, Ray and I were Outward Bound instructors and therefore had something in common. Greg was over from Utah to work with Mike on the camming concept, which he'd been developing since 1967. Jardine had been invited to a spaghetti dinner, and Greg offerred to show him the current state of development of his new protection device for climbing, but first Ray had to sign a non-disclosure/non-compete agreement.
Ray was a quick engineering study and soon grasped the essentials of the constant-angle cam and spring-load concept. It was all-in-all a very convivial and exciting sharing among friends. This is why, several years later, when word began to leak out about Ray's secret devices, Greg sent the first of a string of registered letters to Jardine, seeking to come to some sort of agreement over his breach of faith. All the letters were refused, so it was that, finally, after Friends came out on the market and Mark Vallance began producing them under license from Ray, that Greg finally filed suit. To make a long story a little shorter, Mark, who is a stand-up guy, but had not been told the whole story by Ray, finally agreed to pay Greg a settlement for the use of the camming concept. Who needs an enema when you've got a friend like Ray?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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Jello
WOW !!!!!!
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My Name Is Drew
Big Wall climber
Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.
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May 26, 2007 - 01:31am PT
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.....what are those, headphones?
Ohhhhh, SIDEBURNS.
heh.
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My Name Is Drew
Big Wall climber
Dogtown, LosAngeles, CA.
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May 26, 2007 - 01:35am PT
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Jaybro....
agreed. If I am able to nail down a time signature, melody, etc it just aint Jazz man.
...."smooth jazz". sanitized for your personal safety jazz more like (bronx cheer).
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