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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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Ok, just back for a sec. Don't think you have to apologize Tarbuster...
Maybe not much animosity between posters yet since most voices have been male (and in agreement). Some of the uglyish stuff wasn't really challenged either. Maybe it's those c*#k fights that can elevate things.
Finally, left to our own devices, seems a bit like Lord of the Flies?
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JC Marin
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but there appear to be multiple false equivalences in this piece...anyway, time to move on back to this reality.
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Trump
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
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Vying amongst each other for supremacy. There is nothing counterculture about this. It is actually the same story being told since Europeans first arrived on Turtle Island. Vying for supremacy is what white men are conditioned to do through our white supremacist patriarchal society
Since Europeans first arrived on Turtle Island? That’s as far back as our historical understanding cares to go? That description sounds a lot like the same story of survival of the fittest to me, and we can all thank our lucky stars that we’re winning that struggle for supremacy.
While I expect that her points about white men, and whiteness, and men, are largely valid and true, they’re probably equally true of humans in general. Why does she choose to apply them at precisely the point that she does, in a way that divides us in to white men, and others, rather than in a way that unites us, as humans? Our tribalistic others-blaming tendencies may in many ways be one of our most advantageous characteristics.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
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ok back again. wow, some of the stuff posted here make me wonder if the posters have any women in their lives.
give your mom a call and/or a hug if you're lucky enough to be able to. remember when she told you that YOU are a special snowflake? you probably were, to her at least.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
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4) If I keep typing no one will continue reading this anyway. (please insert your opinion, and keep on topoing!) At least until the fulfillment of soothsayer Roy's predictions. I don't see it myself.
It's so easy to misread things. I thought you wrote Toproping when I first read it - LOL.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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ok back again. wow, some of the stuff posted here make me wonder if the posters have any women in their lives.
I have been blessed with incredible women in my life since the day i was born.
But that doesn't change my post upthread. it's easy, as she does, to criticize things. Supertopo is a perfect example -- half the threads here are one group of people criticizing another.
But yelling about how wrong and f*#ked up something or someone or some situation or belief is doesn't do a damn thing besides proving that you can yell.
To whine that the white male patriarchy is horrible might have been meaningful 100 years ago. Today it's just yelling into the echo chamber. if she wants to be taken seriously, let her offer some suggestions about how to make things better.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 12, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
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2) Ed H, generally civil, really needs an avatar. Can you imagine the intellectual cut downs if he really letv the hair down. Is that even possible? (please get him a nickname, prod his mind).
actually, the reason I post under my name is that I have to take responsibility for what I write here. Jousting with unnamed trolls really isn't very much fun, but so many of you take a false courage hiding behind avatars.
I just got a hair cut so not as much hair to let down these days.
As for toxic masculinity,
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/intimatepartnerviolence/consequences.html
"Over 40% of female homicide victims in the U.S. are killed by an intimate partner"
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:29am PT
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the reason I post under my name is that I have to take responsibility for what I write here
+1 for that. Anonymity is for pussies.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:14am PT
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yeah
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 13, 2018 - 07:43am PT
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Actually, the stats on "IPV" seem to make an interesting point. While they do show that women are more likely to be victims than men (especially in the case of sexual violence), the statics show that, overall, IPV is much more "evenly distributed" over the sexes than I would have thought (of course I really don't know the role that "same-sex" partners might play in these stats, since that's not spelled out, so I'll ignore it). For example, Ed posts the stat that " Over 40% of female homicide victims in the U.S. are killed by an intimate partner" (=IP). For the sake of argument, I will take that to mean 40%. Since female homicide victims represent about 22% of the total homicides (data for the US from Wiki), that means about 9% of the total homicides are women killed by IPs. On the other hand, the data from the CDC says "about 1 in 6 of homicide victims are killed by an intimate partner", so we can deduce about 10% of the male homicide victims are by IPs. In particular, close to 8% of the total homicides are men killed by IPs. That means the chance a man is killed by an IP is pretty close to (one might even say: "roughly the same as") the chance a woman is killed by an IP. This jives with the stat from the CDC page that says "Nearly 1 in 5 adult women and about 1 in 7 adult men report having experienced severe physical violence from an intimate partner in their lifetime."
I have to say that I lost interest in the OP article almost immediately and couldn't finish it. However, I do feel that by trying associate a concept like "Toxic Masculinity" to Alex Honnold and "Free Solo", all the author can do is strip the concept of whatever meaning it might have were it used in a more relevant context (e.g. Hollywood filmmaking or the history of professional mathematics).
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 13, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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Thread drift. IMHO, the "hiding behind avatars" thing is a bit overwrought. Maybe as much as the, "look what I've climbed, my opinion about representative democracies is the most valid," fallacy is waved on high.
One example, people sign agreements that can get them fired for social media posts. Topo politics, maybe like office politics can blur the lines of "reasonable" behavior too. There are things you would say to your climbing partners that you would never say at work. Some environments are just stifling, the internet should be more free in my opinion. It's virtual by nature right?
Finally, someone responded above to my comment. There are reasoned responses to the original article, some ugly stuff too, some in between.
Never meant to offend anyone, or maybe only in the best way
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 13, 2018 - 08:34am PT
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What Ed said.
Everyone gets his or her opinion. Erin Monahan included. I’d say we’ve read Ms. Monahan’s complaints before from a long list of postmodern authors, some of whom are female (but not all). They are common and somewhat reasonable complaints. There is pain and suffering in the world, and we are all guilty, interpretatively.
It’s almost de rigeuer now that we hear and see stories where men (most often white) are not very bright or knowledgeable, and women are more heroic, more courageous, and more knowing. My own experiences in the classroom at Santa Clara University, at the U of A, and at UW for at least 10 years might support those ideas. The men in my classrooms were too often lazy, where women seemed to be more collaborative, more engaged intellectually, and with better social skills in handling controversy. (However, I don’t have metric data to show you.) The story of superior women is now rather old and tired for me. In some respects, it is the same story as men have told. What I would like to see and hear is the next narrative, the next paradigm. What new evolutionary social idea or concept next should be described and sold to us?
It might be that the next story to celebrate would be one of men’s emancipation—but something that goes beyond being more emotionally aware and respectful. I’m up for a truly new world order. But what would it look like? To be evolutionary it would seem to need be unpredictable . . . something really new than simply “being nice and respectful to others.”
Be well.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Dec 13, 2018 - 09:07am PT
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Thread drift? Ha!
I think the real question is why cut the freak flag? Can things virtually exist simultaneously, i.e. avatar/named? Also, did someone in the OW crew call the hair aid?
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Dec 13, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'll be dead in another 20 or 30 years, so all I can hope is my daughter (and her peers) do a better job of things than you and I did, kingtut.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent. I disagree with almost everything she writes but I admire her commitment and her zeal. I believe that she will eventually find her voice and get out of her own way.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Dec 13, 2018 - 04:50pm PT
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Erin is passionate, intelligent and consistent. I disagree with almost everything she writes but I admire her commitment and her zeal.
Exactly my thought….
My simple male brain would hurt if I were as passionate as she is.
In the end I think it is counterproductive to view the world through a prism.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Dec 13, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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Using one’s own name is advantageous to those who benefit from authority bias.
I'm aware of that Robert, it is a characteristic of both bullies and insecure people. But the anonymity makes it easy to be really mean with no repercussions. And of course I used the term 'pussies' deliberately for a reaction. I actually meant cowards.
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