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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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What are some of the many “justifiable” reasons for putting yourself in harms way by climbing below other climbers that would hold up in a court of law ? I don’t think “because everyone else is doing it” would hold up in court. Honest question. Thanks
Edit: to rescue someone?
People ride bicycles on roads all the time, even, if you can can believe it, when there are cars on the same roads.
Have they "assumed the risk" that they'll get run over by a negligent driver?
I am not sure that "standard" recreational climbing is really any more dangerous than riding a bicycle on a busy road--they are both somewhat dangerous, but also activities that people engage in all the time without being viewed as engaging in some sort of ultra-hazardous activity.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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aaand this is why I zero interest in El Cap.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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aaand this is why I zero interest in El Cap.
and the piss smell.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I guess I'm just surprised that no one seems to think that the dude who dropped the bag is responsible in some way.
Over the normal course of long climb career, everybody drops things. One hopes that it is never a partner, or ones self, or something critical like a haul bag. And if it is something like that, one hopes it is no more than a major annoyance and good camp fire story.
Given how common this, I disagree with the notion that dropping a haul bag in the manner describes here rises to gross negligence.
If someone drives 75 on a snowy highway, I would call that gross negligence. Forgetting to fully check your mirrors before changing lanes I would describe as negligence. Saying I forget I was driving on snow is not plausible. But you don't make a conscious decision to not check your mirrors. It is just one of those human mistakes that humans occasionally make. Sure, if you change lanes and hit someone, the person you hit can collect from your insurance.
But this standard has most explicitly not been applied to climbing. If you are a race car driver and are seriously injured because another driver screwed up, I don't think you are going to be able to successfully sue.
I would think that forgetting to lock a locking biner is something that happens to everybody who climbs long enough.
If routine negligence is the standard for liability for climbing, the sport would take a huge hit. I'm mildly surprised, and glad, that land owners including the government in places like Yosemite have not been held responsible for dangerous conditions.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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if you feel you are entitled to sue another climber for any injury sustained for any reason, you need to go find another sport. climbing is an inherently dangerous activity and you accept these risks by participating, period. many injuries i've seen can clearly be attributed to belayer failure. so what are you going to do now, call your f king attorney? this is really sad.
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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Dropping a haul bag should not happen if you know what you're doing. It is solely the result of operator error. I've been climbing walls for almost 20 years and have never dropped one and before this accident I have not heard of climbers routinely dropping a haulage. Yeah gear gets dropped like carabiners, cams, and such but since a haulage represents a significantly bigger risk steps should be taken to make sure it doesn't happen. This was an error made by a person that resulted in a life threatening injury. How is the guy that dropped it not responsible for his actions? if this incident happened on a highway like I mentioned previously I have no doubt he would have been liable and be required to pay damages. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not the guy screwed up and someone else life will never be the same. Any decent human being would feel the need to make amends on some level. It has nothing to do with the fact that climbing is inherently risky. driving is risky and society still holds us accountable for risky/reckless behavior.
In my head this is different from something like loose rock that is there as a result of nature and that will inevitably fall off as time progresses.
Skiing is also inherently risky but if you run into someone and kill them you are subject to manslaughter charges
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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if you feel you are entitled to sue another climber for any injury sustained for any reason, you need to go find another sport. climbing is an inherently dangerous activity and you accept these risks by participating, period. many injuries i've seen can clearly be attributed to belayer failure. so what are you going to do now, call your f king attorney?
"for any reason"? there are some border cases how people being dropped by belayer- absolute negligence, or even intentional [ I do not know any cases but why not?] so what you are going to do - silently cry to your fukking pillow? Why belayer can do whatever and not to be blamed? And in this particular case with dropped haulbag- - if tosser would took the moral responsibility - probably no one be so pissed that going to bring the lawyers
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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I don't think negligence has anything to do with it. I was raised with the "You brake it you bought it" ethic. If I did it intentionally that is criminal as well. But either way it takes some major dumbassery to lose control of a haul bag, and major asshatery to not try to make amends.
The right thing would to be man up and for the bag dropper to ask "How can I make this right?" Going radio silent leaves the victim with few options to deal with big medical bills and lost paychecks. I think he has every right to become angry over it. I also agree that getting a lawyer to take such a case is going to be a losing effort.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Lots of weird sh#t happens up there, despite best practices. Stuff you'd never plan for or imagine.
If weird sh#t happens that isn't foreseeable, you're probably not responsible for damages you cause one way or the other.
In the present accident, however, everyone seems to agree the bag dropper was at least negligent, and possibly grossly negligent. (In general, there's really no "right" or "wrong" in deciding whether something is negligent or grossly negligent--that's why we have trials, so that a jury (or in some instances a judge) can decide.)
A lot of people are assuming that the bag dropper may be liable if he was "grossly negligent," but not if he's just regular negligent.
I'm not at all sure that's the law (which would depend on the jurisdiction), or even if there is settled law on this point in general. It would be a reasonable way to do things.
Still, it seems to me that "normal" negligence law should apply at least with respect to standard rock climbing (including trade routes on El Cap), as it's a commonly engaged in activity that isn't crazy dangerous when people act responsibly. Here's an analogy (in addition to my bicycle riding one): hunting. Every year, hunters are killed in hunting accidents. There is something inherently dangerous about people wandering around in the woods discharging firearms. But do we think that a hunter should escape liability if he mistakes another hunter for a deer and shoots him?
In addition to basic fairness, isn't it a good idea to incentivize people to act non-negligently?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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While I feel bad for the victim in this case, absent clear evidence that the this was caused by significant negligence, it's hard for me to support a lawsuit. Accidents happen.
And while it would have been nice if the guy responsible for the rigging on the dropped bag was a little more willing to check in and be supportive. I'm not sure I view that as required, or an indication that he's a bad guy. He probably feels pretty bad about it too, and may not want to expose himself to financial liability on top of that.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Agreed that it is not a negligence v. gross negligence question- I think someone got side tracked on waivers a ways upthread (I think in California waivers can protect against negligence but not against gross negligence or intentional acts).
I was thinking this would be a great final exam question in a torts class. Negligence generally has four components- legal duty, breach, causation and damages. Or something like that.
Anyway, the last two are easily satisfied but whether the dropper breached any legal duty doesn't seem clear to me. To get full credit on the torts exam you'd have to weave in a discussion about comparative fault and assumption of risk!
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WBraun
climber
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Just see here this thread ......
Internet social media forum virtual kangaroo court in action by more wannabee lawyers than ever seen before ..... :-)
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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BINGO! Werner ya got it.
Peace
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Under Ca law climbing is categorized as ultra hazardous. This bars claims by participants. Not sure if the doctrine applies under federal law, maybe a PI attorney could chime in. I am pretty sure Federal law applies
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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This lawsuit BS is unfortunately NOT unique anymore to just the US. There's a woman in Canmore, AB who is suing a backcountry lodge operator, the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides, and two ski guides after she and 4 other skiers were buried in an avalanche, and her husband died. She's alleging criminal negligence and that the defendants "ignored avalanche predictions, failed to communicate avalanche predictions to the group and failed to exercise reasonable care."
What I see as similar between the above and the haulbag accident is, as we are all aware, accidents do happen even when skilled individuals are involved, when it comes to risky activities.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4037125/widow-of-alberta-man-killed-in-golden-area-avalanche-sues-guides-lodge-operator/
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Guides, generally speaking, work hard to keep clients alive. Doing so leads to more tips, return business, and good word of mouth advertising.
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WBraun
climber
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When a guide gets a client killed I think some serious questions are in order.
That's why you should never advertise as a guide.
Always advertise as a mental speculator.
That way if you end up in court the judge will shake their head and say, "You fool you hired a mental speculator, get the fuk out of my courtroom"
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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When a guide gets a client killed I think some serious questions are in order.
I personally don't have much knowledge of the situation mentioned above, but skiers die every year in BC while under the care and direction of guides. I know of only one other situation in Canada where a lawsuit (involving a ski guide) made it to court. Backcountry and heli ski operations maintain high standards and have a waiver that explicitly states the inherent dangers involved with activities in the mountains.
I'd bet the Golden Alpine Holiday and ACMG suit will be kicked out of court. Fortunately, lawsuits in Canada for this type of thing don't get far. Its disappointing though to read of a skier thinking that guides are to blame considering the standards involved.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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"virtual kangaroo court in action by more wannabee lawyers than ever seen before"
If you read the actual transcript of the judges summary in the negligence wrongful death trial of the California college outing group that had a faulty belay anchor,
you will find that the actual legal system in that case was equally a kangaroo court.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Werner wins. Shut this stoopid shite down.
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