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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 05:49am PT
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False, but irrelevant. What capitalism IS has been around forever.
False and relevant. No it has not been around forever and is a very recent development.
But the real question is: What would you replace it with?
Have you seen Forbe's Magazine's list of the 10 best cities to live in? None of them are the the capitalist paradise of the USA. Most are Euro social democracies.
Have you seen US News and World Report's article on the countries with the highest quality of life? You guessed it, Euro social democracies top the list. At 18 the capitalist paradise does manage to outrank Portugal.
Of course those magazines are just chock-a-block with raving Marxists.
Capitalism does not work. The Democrats think it can. The Republicans know that it can't, that's why they are now out to pillage the system for all they can before the house of cards collapse.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:48am PT
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So when you say "kill capitalism" all you really mean is that you want free medical care and better public transportation like they have in Europe?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 27, 2017 - 07:18am PT
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Ah the tradeoff between attempting to build a better society and maximizing profits.
I believe smaller companies are the great driver behind innovation.
Once companies become too large they cease innovating and just hoover up the true contributors.
Politicians pander too much to the big companies, even here in Canada.
The big debates are how large of a social safety net is appropriate and who should do the regulation. Industries and banks should not be self regulating. The social safety net should be adequate but the arguement is in the definition of adequate.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 27, 2017 - 09:00am PT
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Good points, AP. Where the hell is the balance point, and how do we get there and keep it?
@Ghost: I KNOW as in a pretty close personal friend worked in management for a major energy company, and she was VERY specific about what they were doing. Yeah, I know. It happens, whether you like it or not.
@Madbolter: I didn't say I liked the idea of universal income. But the idea is being floated. Make what you will of it. It think it was Bill Gates who has been arguing for a tax on robots to help out displaced workers. My point, generally, is that folks are thinking hard about tech displacement and wages and workers.
BAd
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Dec 27, 2017 - 09:23am PT
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Nicely put AP.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 27, 2017 - 09:38am PT
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@Ghost: I KNOW as in a pretty close personal friend worked in management for a major energy company, and she was VERY specific about what they were doing. Yeah, I know. It happens, whether you like it or not.
I'm sure it does happen. But having been through the process myself, I know that the laws are in place to prevent abuse of the visa system. That those laws are not always enforced, or not enforced evenly, is not the same thing as saying the US has been overrun with cheap foreign labor.
Reminds me of the whole "kick the illegals out" thing. If you want to get rid of illegal workers, go after the companies that hire them. You can't blame Pedro or Sanjit for wanting a job that will allow him to have a decent life.
Regarding your friend's experience, when she found out that the company was abusing the visa system and bringing in foreign workers at the expense of qualified US citizens, what did she do about it?
I'm not asking in a mean-spirited way -- it's a difficult issue, and I'm curious to know how it was handled in a situation where it sounds like there was clear evidence of illegal activity.
But, bottom line, I don't believe it is as big a problem as some people think.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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So when you say "kill capitalism" all you really mean is that you want free medical care and better public transportation like they have in Europe?
No such thing as free healthcare, Bryan, and it goes farther than intelligent urban planning.
The Spanish anarchists in Catalonia were doing quite well back there in the 1930s. Then capitalism (with a bit of help from the soviets) killed them.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 27, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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By all means ban shopping! Then you’ll see a real depression which you can then blame on
Fox News, or something. When you gonna mandate one child per woman? Or is that not
politically correct?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 27, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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@Ghost: You're so right about this:
If you want to get rid of illegal workers, go after the companies that hire them. You can't blame Pedro or Sanjit for wanting a job that will allow him to have a decent life.
I don't blame those folks at all. I'd do the same thing. I know it sounds Trumpish, but I'm for a merit-based immigration system. Why the hell wouldn't we want a bunch of educated, hard-working Sanjits coming over? They bring real value and dynamism to our country. Make 'em citizens! Don't most countries have some sort of vetting system that takes into account these qualities--education, financial resources, etc.?
Re. curbing illegal labor, which is a genuine problem, you are so right. We could end most of it in a matter of months with a simple system of requiring proper ID and employer verification. Deploy a few thousand roving agents to check compliance--with significant fines for violations--and we'd see a turnaround pretty quickly. The flood of illegals over the border would slow to a trickle--no need for border wall, ill will, or gross expenditures of taxpayers' $$. The problem, of course, is ZERO political will to do it. Big companies like the cheap labor, and the Dems want what they consider to be "their" voters. Nothing will change.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
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Great case study, DMT
Have you seen Forbe's Magazine's list of the 10 best cities to live in? None of them are the the capitalist paradise of the USA. Most are Euro social democracies.
It must be nice to live in one of those places, a part of NATO living in peace because of not having to pay the USA for the costs of defending them. That's just one of the many expensive ways in which these little utopias don't pay their own freight. And let's wait about another decade, so that we can witness first-hand the implosion of the EU due to their inability to pay for the freebies that are seen as "rights."
The USA, sadly, has considered these tiny nation-states (homogeneous little "countries" that don't hold a candle to most US states) as exemplars of what the entire USA should strive to become. To the extent that we've tried it, we've also created entirely unsustainable debt loads.
Yes, a significant proportion of that debt-load went to the military/industrial complex. But that goes largely back to my first point. These "utopias" don't pay their own way defensively. Let the US withdraw all military support from these little nations, and the EU wouldn't even make it through the decade I project its going to last even with our support.
You can't do little utopia-evaluations in a vacuum. The entire EU is heavily propped up, with only perhaps two of those nation-states being genuinely self-supporting and able in principle to prosecute their own self-defense. Germany, for one, is about tired of its role in propping up this cluster-fornication.
Have you seen US News and World Report's article on the countries with the highest quality of life? You guessed it, Euro social democracies top the list. At 18 the capitalist paradise does manage to outrank Portugal.
See above.
I, too, could live a lavish and high-quality lifestyle, if I was willing to borrow WAY beyond my means of EVER repaying the debt! Somehow, though, that's okay if governments do it.
Tell you what, let's ALL go on welfare. That way "the government" can give us ALL a high quality of life! What are we waiting for?
And nobody has yet answered my earlier question directly related to the OP: Why not make the minimum wage $1000 per hour? Let's "level the playing field" and really stick it to those corporate bastards!
Of course those magazines are just chock-a-block with raving Marxists.
True.
Capitalism does not work.
False! United States capitalism (with its ripples throughout the world) has produced more wealth for more people (across all classes) in the shortest time of any economic system ever conceived. That statement is really beyond dispute. Conversely, Marxism has stolen and flushed down the toilet more wealth, enslaving every "proletariat" involved in the horror-show, than any economic system ever conceived. Again, that statement is really beyond dispute.
The Democrats think it can. The Republicans know that it can't, that's why they are now out to pillage the system for all they can before the house of cards collapse.
At least we're agreed that both parties are insane. I believe that we're well beyond the tipping point now, with every man, woman, and child in the USA in debt (thanks to the government) to the tune of about $60,000 and rising by the minute. With the majority of Americans NEVER able to dig their way out of that sort of debt, and with the hope of "greater production" increasingly a myth, we literally have no plan nor hope of ever digging out.
An economic "restructuring" must happen, and I predict blood in the streets when it does. I used to think I'd be (just) gone by that time, but at this point I don't expect to be able to check out in time. The clock is ticking much faster than I thought a couple of decades ago. And if you think that you're going to just steal the needed money from the "wealthy," most of whom have their wealth legitimately, you're in for a rude awakening about who really controls policy (and the military).
So, really, to my mind, these economic discussions are akin to debating the causes of fire that burns down an entire nation. Ultimately, we're already at the point where I honestly don't think that there's any pulling back from the fire, and the causes don't much matter unless afterward there are enough sane people left to rebuild a nation in some form.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
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By all means ban shopping!
We won't have to ban shopping, Reilly. Nobody'll have anything to shop with the way things are going.
We can be happy we got to ride the wave for as long as it lasted and we'll peter out about the same time it does. Timing is everything.
I keep telling the wife, we're the luckiest people who ever lived.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Dec 27, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
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"the fact remains that the percentage of profits that goes to the top 1% is too high."
Someone said that - I'd love to know what percentage the masses would not deem "too high" for the owners to take from their own businesses. If an employee would like to better himself, he is free to quit and start his own business - that is the wonder of capitalism.
70% of all businesses in the US are sole proprietorships.
Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods, and
33 percent of exporting value.
So, are you disparaging your neighbor running the successful UPS store franchise down the street who happens to be successful when you are bashing "the 1%"? Probably. Most people and most businesses aren't Amazon or Apple, or their executives.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
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^^^ That!
Plus, both small businesses and mega-corps actually operate on a very small profit margin. McDonalds corporate (which only owns about 11% of stores) outperforms at about 20% profit, but most corporations in the US operate on less than 9%, which is no real "wiggle room" for unforeseen problems, market downturns, etc.
https://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/fast-food-chains-aren-t-rich-protesters-think-192549497.html
Meanwhile, of the 89% of McDonalds that are owned by franchise-holders, their profit-margin is even smaller, with the owner typically making about $150k per year on $2.7 million in sales. They'd do better, but franchise expenses are not trivial, which translates into some of that 20% that McDonalds corporate enjoys in profits. But attacking "McDonalds" is the wrong target, because most of that attack would be targeted at individual franchise-holders rather than corporate.
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/mcdonalds-franchise-cost-vs-profit.html
Most franchise-holders see between 0% to 6% profit, which, again, is basically NO wiggle-room for anything unexpected.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-profit-margin-for-fast-food-franchises-like-McDonalds-and-Dominos-Pizza
There ARE a few mega-corps making obscene profits. Think big-oil and big-pharma, both of which are well-known public-rapists. Big-media takes more than its "fair share" as well.
But, in general, the myth of mega-corp profits is just that.
Now, of course, you could argue that ridiculous CEO salaries come out of the bottom line, reducing declared profit, so there's really plenty of money there to redistribute to laborers. But, again, that argument works for only a small proportion of corporations. A few mega-rich abusers really skew the stats.
And, if their boards and shareholders are happy to pay successful CEOs the salaries they command, well, then vote with your feet and quit investing in such companies, while lobbying those boards for reform. Good luck with that.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
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Madbolter. As I don't appreciate the concept of minimum wages, we do not have it, you answer that question yourself. Every country has its own ways how the economy is constructed, and who better to suggest a solution but the citizens?
What I don't get though, is why some don't see one's own society as "us". Instead of going for a better place for everyone, including oneself, one heads for the opposite.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 27, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42484798
UK's pay squeeze...
"The good news is that things will get better next year. The bad news is we may only go from backwards to standing still, with prospects for a meaningful pay recovery still out of sight."
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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Pop quiz: name the Republican president who said:
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
You gentlemen need to understand that labor produces capital, capital does not produce labor. Capital is concentrated into the hands of the very few through theft.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 27, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
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The US seems to believe in cheap easily intimidated labour. I believe there were some very profitable experiments in this regard in the South before 1870 or so.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 27, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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Not RAyGUn? Heaven forfend!
@Gary: I think you overstate this a little--
Capital is concentrated into the hands of the very few through theft.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "theft." Is Jay-Z stealing from his fans? What about Michael Jordan? His net worth: 1.39 Billion. That's a lot of capital. From whom did he steal? Or is that small change? Which, I get, isn't that much compared to really big players. I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'd just like a little clarification as to what you're thinking about when you say this. Overall, I'm a big fan of capitalism, and I think Madbolter is totally correct about lifting people out of poverty, but it (capitalism) does need some controls. The question, as always, is how much?
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
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If the military - industrial complex that supports domestic American industry through spending billions of tax dollars locally, was outsourced to allied foreign nations spending their own domestic tax money accordingly, would there be a trade war involving tariffs and countervailing duties to protect US domestic self interest in pursuit of a common international defense ?
Doubtful, imo.
Once defense manufacturers had to compete on a truly open market, with many nations (rather than primarily one) holding such companies to their own governmental regulations (which is almost not done here), they could no longer sell $500 toilet seats and $20,000 widgets. As it is, defense contractors here have a pretty cushy life, and it should not be.
Furthermore, the US market for weapons and other products that get sold to the DoD should be much, much smaller than it is.
I don't understand your "outsourced" line.
I also don't understand your "supports domestic American industry" line. If what you imagine is some "trickle down" theory of tax dollars making it down to mom and pop shops producing widgets that then make it into fighter jets, well, that's not the flow in either direction. Instead, a very few large defense contractors make piles of money, basically subsidized by tax dollars, to rape the one gigantic market they have a stranglehold on. And, of course, these contracts are won by money exchanging hands, as is done with everything important in Washington.
I also don't get the "common international defense" line. Ideally, each nation would decide what level of defense spending was realistic for its needs and pay for that with its own money. I don't presume globalism.
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