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rincon
climber
Coarsegold
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Dec 14, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
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Dude,
Dan McD. retrofitted the route on Monday
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 07:25am PT
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For those interested, here's the Edelrid vid. The weight difference between the two climbers is similar to what my wife and I are dealing with, and we have had a moderate "clacker" moment on a fall or two, my wife getting hoisted pretty far up the wall, both of us bouncing off each other. No injuries but worrisome. When possible, we'll use the Ohm.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
BAd
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TLP
climber
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Dec 15, 2017 - 07:42am PT
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Bad, why doesn't she just clip in??? This should be standard for all lighter belayers, maybe most belayers period. A device is not needed and from the description above, this one is too fiddly for real-world climbing use.
The Doninisaur is 100% correct. Primarily, just lock off. Maybe there are times to yard in slack, very very rarely justification for any hopping about or other foolishness to "soften" the catch. Many more, and more serious, injuries have certainly resulted from falling climbers hitting things than from swinging in. I clearly remember at least twice preventing a bad injury by having locked off the rope instantly and tightly, and the falling leader barely avoided hitting a ledge.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 15, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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DMT, I understand. But theres lots of routes that have deck potential, like every time before you get to the first bolt. Which on some routes in the gorge, can be quite high. Or how about 'Love Stinks' theres potential for a 40' er or more on that route, I wouldn't recommend that to a guy/gal who led a 5.11 at the gym. Nor would I recommend adding a bolt so that he can safely lead it. On the route in question its been fixed, but I don't think the 'new' answer is to sanitize all the dangerous routes, don't climb them until you can acknowledge the risk and decide if its one you'll confront or not.
Seems like AFTER someone actually gets f*#ked on one of these routes, it will get fixed. Like this 5.8. Im sure people who were present had a different take on how f*#ked it is to deal with another human who may die infront of you. In Viren's post he mentioned at first she seemed ok and progressively getting worse, ending up with a blank stare and fixed pupils as a sign of increasing intracranial pressure. Don't know what is going on with her now, but if she had a major bleed in her brain that caused it, she may never regain consciousness. Could have stopped breathing on scene, as brain is responsible for that too. Having to see people die, dealing with dead bodies or totally disable people at work I know how f*#ked it is to see another human that was totally ok an hour ago laying in a pool of own blood and feces, dead.
I don't think sanitizing every route of any potential long fall is the answer, if so, why don't we all just top rope? But it is sport climbing, which should be well bolted and more about the harder gymnastic moves than runouts through first clips. It is an ethical dilemma for the locals who use their drills in the gorge, but my two cents would be to protect the first clips well enough that climbers don't deck unless they really f*#ked it up. No one can be held accountable for user errors and I bet if the climbing team who had an accident were both attentive enough at those first clips, this thread would not be here...
Hope she is ok and it was only inflammation, which did not cause permanent damage that led to increased ICP.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 15, 2017 - 09:00am PT
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The thing about bolted sport is that if a danger exists, it’s probably there as a contrived and manufactured risk based solely on the FA’s ego. As you contemplate living up to their supposed skill and boldness, keep in mind they had a drill and you probably don’t.
This isn’t normally an issue these days, nobody puts up with this crap anymore, the route just gets fixed. It’s only a problem when someone living in the past gets involved. Fortunately, those people, as seen so often here, tend to talk more than act.
My 2 cents for beginners and moderates, and it tends to really only be moderates that still exist in this condition, is to just say no to these bullsh!t routes. They’re not worth it. There’s probably a better experience to be had nearby.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 09:07am PT
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Hey, TLP:
As has been discussed here, there are LOTS of places where clipping in is not an option. This is super common in the Gorge and other places. What do you suggest? Carry around a 100 lb. sack of rocks? A anvil?
BAd
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 15, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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I agree with Vitaly.
The Gorge has some of the odder "sport" bolting choices I've seen in comparison to other climbing areas because a lot of it came about during the time of "figuring out" what actually is this sport climbing? Also maybe a lot of the FA guys thought like most long trad routes of the times -ahh this in an easy climb or an easier moves here, so it doesn't need a bolt? etc.. vs putting up more typical "sport climbs" at grades 5.10 or lower etc (or they were $ cheap too!). -The most common grades probably climbed by the always increasing masses of the newer/beginner climbers who are also most likely to fall. It seems does seem a contrived concept to attempt proof of some legacy ego boldness via "the easy routes" at a sport climbing area.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Dec 15, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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Vitaliy, I understand your frustration and I am also very upset that this person got injured.
But there are two fundamental issues going on here.
1. Not every bolted route is a "sport" route. Many newer climbers do not realize this! The modern definition of sport route is a route bolted such that all or most falls are safe with good belaying. Many of the routes in the Gorge were bolted ground up 30+ years ago. This was an era when all bolted routes were just beginning. There was no road map back then saying "these routes need to be safe for everyone". I think it was more about "now we can climb routes that won't take pro". Should these routes be retrobolted? I'm not that interested in that discussion, but I do think better education of newer climbers is important.
2. Nothing can make up for a bad belay. My post (up thread) of the common belaying mistakes I see every time I go to the gym or to a bolted climbing area addresses this so I won't repeat it. Again, better education for newer climbers is key.
Phyl
edit to say posted at same time as Ryan who makes similar points
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 15, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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From Henny on first page "Don't get lax just because you're experienced."
And don't be afraid to challenge your behavior about their belaying behavior.
Case in point; long ago when leading Road Warrior at the Gunks, 11c R, my belayer was a gunks legend, laying on his back as he belayed, among a group of other gunks legends and regulars. It effed with my head in a big way and although I didn't fall it would have been way ugly had I fallen at the first crux.
Thereafter I decided I didn't care who my belayer was, or who was watching, or what kind of stink I might make.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 15, 2017 - 11:17am PT
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The dilemma here is the judgment of the climber... No newbie should have to make an experienced assessment of a bolted 5.8 route in the middle of a sport area. They should not need a 5.11 trad head to safely climb it. These routes are bullsh!t. If they wanted a dose of this, they likely already knew they could have gone up to Tuolumne.
Someone out for a day of fun and climbing got severely injured being a beginner on a beginner route - it's not the right message.
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Matt's
climber
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Dec 15, 2017 - 11:31am PT
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in my opinion, there's a lot of weird assumptions being made here:
1) that sport climbing should be 100% safe, and that it can be made that way
2) that 5.8 is a beginner grade, and climbs of that difficulty should be made idiot proof
3) that the accident in question occurred due to a bolt placement issue (rather than belayer error/ climber error/ really bad luck/etc...)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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I agree wholeheartedly with the two previous posts. I’ll take it one step further by saying that when experts put up beginner’s routes with precious few bolts, I have no problem with more bolts being added. Rainy day in Patagonia.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 15, 2017 - 12:34pm PT
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Pretty sure that there is broad consensus on this route that the bolt placement was inherently poor for the area (which is why it has gotten retroed already). I led it when I was pretty solid 5.11 and knew what I was getting into.
Well said.
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Matt's
climber
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Dec 15, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
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Yea, and others warned me about it. Deck if you blow the 3rd clip, regardless of belay quality, if the belayer is a light person and the leader "king" size lol.
to be clear-- by "blow the clip", you mean falling right after pulling up rope to click the bolt?
by that definition-- my memory is that most routes in ORG feature groundfall hazard if you "blow the clip" at the second or third bolt....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 15, 2017 - 01:52pm PT
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Smith Rock comes to mind...but stick clips and spicy 2nd and 3rd clips on 5.12 are not the same as 5.8 sport routes. Which brings up the irony I found as I worked my own way through the grades - the same guys manufacturing boldness at the lower grades were often installing very closely spaced bolts on the higher ones.
A lot of routes at modern sport areas have been bolted with the intent you'll use a stick to clip the first 1-2 draws. If you were to climb these routes without the stick, you might find the bolts have not at all been placed with any intent of getting them clipped while climbing. The goal instead was to get the rope out of the way of the moves and keep the leader off the ground, maybe also to reduce rope drag 20 clips later.
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Bryan Adams
climber
California
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Dec 15, 2017 - 02:05pm PT
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Hi all,
The climber is doing well. Her cranial pressure is down and is staying that way. She's still heavily sedated and on some really powerful pain medication. She's mostly breathing on her own although she is getting some assistance. I don't know how she fell so far without breaking anything else. No spinal or neck injuries. Some bruises and a few scratches, but nothing that the doctors are worried about. They won't be able to really assess her mental state until they ween her off of the sedation medication. That could be a while.
I should let everyone know that several close family members are aware of this thread and have read it. Mostly, I shared this thread because of Viren's post. I couldn't find any articles in the newspaper so this thread helped me explain to people what happened. It might be something to be aware of as you write your opinions here. I'm sure the belayer and climber will eventually become aware of this too. Something to keep in mind as we all share our thoughts.
A little about the climber. I've climbed many times with her and know her to be a cautious and thoughtful. She always researches her climbs the day before and never takes any unnecessary risk. I know she also chooses climbs where the crux is higher up (no chance of decking) I've looked at the mountain project post for this climb and there's no mention of a dangerous 3rd bolt clipping or slick polished rock. I don't think her fall was a result of a poor route assessment on her part. Climbing is dangerous and there's only so much we as the climber can do to protect ourselves. I'm not here to say the climber made or didn't make any mistakes. I'm just hoping to shed some background information about my experiences with her.
As for the belay work, I don't have all the details and wasn't there, so I defer to others. Speaking broadly, a climber can make all the right judgement calls about a route, but of course a solid belay is also needed. (I know this particular climber chooses her partners with care.) Yet, at some point, all climbers have to trust that their belayer will do their job.
It's hard to assess the attentiveness of your belayer while your working to get those first clips. I agree with others that it's important to speak up if you see something unsafe. As the climber, you can only gauge the skill and competency of your belayer so much from the ground. Again some level of trust is needed right?
I suppose I should restate that in sharing the climber's background, I'm not trying to argue everything was or wasn't done right. I'm sure I'll have many conversations with her once she has recovered about that day. I just felt like it might be useful to share more context with everyone. I'm happy to share any updates I have as her condition progresses.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this event.
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Bryan Adams
climber
California
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Dec 15, 2017 - 02:59pm PT
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I'm remembering the belayer saying they were on Enter the Dragon. Viren wrote that it was China Doll. Are those routes close? I wonder if they accidentally mixed them up. You're right, China Doll does have some information about some bolting. Perhaps they chose to use a guidebook that didn't have the same information about China Doll's third bolt? I'm sure I'll get a clearer story once the climber recovers.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Dec 15, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
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Bryan Adams, thanks so much for the update. I really hope she makes a completely recovery.
There is a lot to be learned from this thread. I hope a lot of people read it. I saw nothing at all in my reading of the posts that was critical of the climber herself.
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Bryan Adams
climber
California
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Dec 15, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
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Completely agree Phylp I didn't see anything of concern either. Just thought I would give folks a heads up that some family members may or may not be following this.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Dec 15, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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the same guys manufacturing boldness at the lower grades were often installing very closely spaced bolts on the higher ones.
@JLP, when talking about routes put up during this "transitional era", it may not even be that there was any malign intent of deliberately manufacturing boldness.
I recall a conversation I had in the late 80s/early 90s. At that point I had started to lead bolted Valley and Meadows 5.11s like Fort Knox/Golden Bars, Chiropodist Shop, Ephemeral Clogdance etc. and was amazed at how much more tightly bolted those routes were compared to the 5.8 and 5.9s. The person I mentioned this to said to me, "What happened was those people just didn't bother to put in bolts when the climbing was easy enough that they weren't going to fall. But when they started to put up routes that were actually hard for them, they bolted it to protect the falls they thought they might take."
In other words, those 5.8 and 5.9 routes were never put up for a specific level of climber. They were done by a specific level of climber. These days, I think much more thought goes into the idea of "who is actually going to climb these routes", by first ascentionists.
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