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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 11, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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happiegrrrl2,
I’m sorry that you’ve had a very difficult life. It’s very sad for me to read your post, and it’s understandable that you could be very angry about it. Your decisions are sometimes difficult for me to understand, even though you’ve explained them here. In my view, some of them look destructive.
There’s pain, and then there’s suffering. The latter is what one makes of the former. These things can spiral out of control.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:18am PT
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I'm glad the sexual harassment hysteria is being brought to the natonal fore front hoping it will end ... Not picking sides in the Wilmot / Happie Girl debate but i have seen 3 different cases in the government sector where women with major integrity issues tried to cherry pick the sexual harassment / discrimination laws by filing cry-baby lawsuits...One of the women won several small settlements because as my attorney friend said " it's cheaper for the government to pay a small settlement than to drag it out in court.."
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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I am very proud of Callie and her work! She goes to great effort to perform objective, accurate and professional research on difficult topics. She, like many others, is making a difference in getting the world to a better place through education and awareness.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 11, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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You ask for an example. Recently, at the school where I taught some time ago, a sexual assault charge was brought against a young man, a football player. Under Obama guidelines, an administrator – I don’t recall her title, maybe Director of Diversity – assembled a panel of faculty and staff to adjudicate the charge. When the victim testified, she was adamant that the sex was consensual, but a friend of hers (who presumably wasn’t there at the time) said the charge was correct.
The panel, after deliberation, concluded the young man was guilty. The basis for their decision: there was a “likelihood” the incident had taken place, a purely subjective probability agreed upon and permitted under the guidelines. He was either suspended or expelled and left campus, then, a short time later, filed a suit in federal court in Denver. After some time a financial settlement from the university (of undisclosed amount) was awarded.
I haven’t kept track of him, and I can’t even remember his name, but I’ve wondered about the whole scenario from time to time. The matter was kept away from law enforcement, so presumably he didn’t acquire the label of “sex offender” or the like, and his girlfriend (anonymous) wasn’t harmed by the media. Is it possible the two of them scammed the university for a fair amount of money? Probably not, but placing the incident in the hands of law enforcement might have been a better way to go.
This is from memory – and I’m old so there may that factor to consider. Still, an interesting scenario. If Crimpergirl is familiar with this case she may correct my mistakes and give us a different slant on the incident.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 11, 2017 - 07:16pm PT
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The attacks on wilmot are way over the top
are they though?
wilmot started by fabricating a series of complaints about an article.
and if you [TW] think i'm wrong using the word fabricate, i would ask you, as i asked him, to copy and paste any quotes directly from the article that he can find to back up his claims. [which to reiterate were: "Of course her own gender bias in presenting males as the definition of rape" and "This kind of anti male shaming where one individuals actions are used as a means to collectively place blame on all males"]
he didn't, because in all likelihood he can't.
and so until he or you steps up to the plate and shows otherwise, the operative word is fabricate.
then he usurped the tag #metoo, a movement where many women, for the first time in their lives, felt like they could speak publicly of the abuse/harassment/rapes that they survived, so that he could be "witty" and could again double down on his apparent lies.
so at least im[singular]o, au contraire on the "over the top" opinion as i'm more of the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" opinion on this one.
and re: your opinion re wilmot? who you choose to defend speaks volumes.
now... as per you and all of the folks pointing out how men have been oppressed and justice has been unfairly applied. here are some, imo, important facts, as best as multiple studies have shown to be the case [ie. i've tried to use consensus opinion on this and am if anything trying to use more conservative numbers: the point being that statistics are always going to give a range... so even if we don't know the exact number, there has been enough study over the years to show that the following, with usually less than +/- 5% variance, is true in america]:
 15% of women have been raped [with another 3% of women having attempted rape towards them] so 18% of women have been victims of rape or attempted rape
3% of men have been the victims of rape or attempted rape [ie. ~10% of rape victims are male]
98% of rapists are men
~9% of college men admit to rape or attempted rape
~5% of reported rape is based on false allegation
for every 1000 rapes, 6 rapists will be incarcerated
for every 100 sexual assaults, 65 to 84 of them will not be reported.
source idaho.gov
source moneyish.com
source umd.edu
source oneinfourusa.org
source rainn.org
and so, while i get that a bunch of you have had either direct or indirect experiences on the other side of the sword... and i agree that is horrible...
and so i also agree that there is no doubt that any system of human justice is going to have its failures. [aka there are shItty people the globe over and as women are people, there are some shItty women]
still i have three questions for those of you pushing the "other side":
1. do you believe that if 1 out of every 6 men was penetrated against their will in their lifetimes, that the incarceration rate would be less than 1%?
2. if 1 out of every 6 people were murdered, would any of you have an issue if we said that we lived in a "homicidal culture"?
3. if [as ironically is actually the case] 10% of insurance claims turned out to be fraudulent, and in a situation where insurance claims only paid out 0.6% of the time in part due to their being reported only ~30% of the time, would your first response to a discussion of insurance "justice" be the importance of those 10% or so of cases that were fraudulent?
in short, while all of the many debates that have been brought up [the use of the words "rape culture" - something that even many feminists debate; the false claims, especially against men that sometimes make it through the system; the need for us to not jump to mob justice; the recognition that it is not only males who rape and it is not only females who are victims...] are all important and valid, what is from my perspective invalid is to not acknowledge that all of these "quibbles" are, on a national scale neither of the same scale nor collective resultant trauma as the ongoing major problem at hand.
which from my perspective is simply this:
1 out of 6 women will be either raped or attempted to be raped in their lifetime
65 to 84 out of every 100 sexual assaults will go unreported.
6 out of 1000 rapes will result in someone being incarcerated.
and so while this last statement is aggressive, i believe it needs to be said: if you're not starting all of your "quibbles" regarding these discussions with at least an acknowledgment that the issues as presented above are problematic, then from my perspective you are like someone who complains about insurance fraud as a vehicle to undermine those who are rightfully attempting to find justice in a hypothetical system which delivered justice only 0.6% of the time.
ie. however granularly small: you're part of the problem.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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Been down so long it looks like up to him
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
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Society having to catch up with great women isn't exactly a new phenom...way to go for shining an undeniable light.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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The Warbler spews:
The attacks on wilmot are way over the top
If you can't articulate why you object to his opinions, or mine, maybe you should reassess what prompts the vitriol before resorting to absurd straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks and cyber psycho analysis.
OK, I've resisted responding to you two sickos for a number of daze, but here goes!
Wilmot reaps what he sows, which is reactions to his nasty attacks on what he percieves as liberal posts. He's obviously a sick & bitter right-wing fuk.
As for you Warbler, it is obvious that you have a real problem with assertive women & you enjoy making a long-winded arse of yourself on this forum.
I'm sorry for both of your "little-lives."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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One foot on the platform, the other foot in the grave
Gimme cookie
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 11, 2017 - 11:27pm PT
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There is something very upsetting about this article, and it is not what most people think it is. I am familiar with this case for reasons I'd rather not go into, and there are facts that are misrepresented in the article.
Brock Turner was never convicted of rape. He was never even tried for rape. He was charged with rape, but the charges were dropped. Look it up, the case is well documented.
Callie Marie Rennison published a lie.
You can say that he committed sexual assault and that is the same thing but it is not. There is a specific law for rape. Turner was first charged with rape but the charges are dropped. What he did was a crime, and a bad one, but a less serious crime than rape. But the textbook says he committed rape.
A professor should know better. Why are people here celebrating a lie?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 12, 2017 - 01:38am PT
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A professor should know better. Why are people here celebrating a lie?
Well, it was the truth when it was posted.
As far as I can tell, no one seems real happy, so there's no real celebration in "party-hearty terms;"
but in "hey, you go girl terms," it's New Years Eve and a birthday rolled into one.
And I bet SusanA isn't your real name, either, but a white lie, that's okay. We don't all do it, but I don't have numbers to back me up. Sorry.
As they say in some of the westerns I have seen, Brock was guilty of something, so he probably deserves what he gets...a sullied reputation, which should serve as a warning to others.
nah000, that was an absolutely stellar post, but watch your split infinitives.
--Mr. Pickywicky
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 12, 2017 - 02:13am PT
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6 out of 1000 rapes will result in someone being incarcerated.
This statistic really has to be put into perspective to be meaningful. The source does just that: "20 out of 1000 robberies will result in someone being incarcerated.
https://rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
You can look at the charts and draw your own conclusions, but the biggest difference between the two is % reported to the police (robberies are twice as likely to be reported). The criminal justice system does seem to have a harder time arresting, prosecuting, and convicting rape cases, but it isn't as large of a difference as many would assume.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 03:06am PT
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What color is the sky in your world?
Good one.
Yeah, I wonder about this SusanA. I had time to kill this morning, so I trawled this person's posts. Troll comes to mind.
I had time to kill this morning,
This forum is about the only one I contribute to on a meaningful basis, so it sort of means something to me.
Yes, the BBC HYS (Have Your Say) forum on football (soccer) I occasionally put an input into, and sometimes Quora (what a waste of time), and OZY (somewhat similar, minutes eating up my life, I should be climbing instead).
Once in a great while, the Irish Times, LA Times, SF Chronicle (and some others and all very limited, like my history on any of those forums may be about five or so posts each, max).
The Taco Stand is my preferred way of making an ass of myself.
EDIT
But this is a serious issue and topic and I do not mean to belittle it by any means. I will have a bit more to say, but I have to bicycle to the bus in Rosslare Harbour to get into town, to the credit union, I have a loan that needs payment today.
EDIT
In yesterday’s Irish Independent, a letter to the editor, the woman/writer spoke of harassment and then in her final paragraphs she mentioned that some taxi men in Dublin will not take on a single woman as fare, as they are afraid of any sort of allegations of abuse as such. The woman wrote that is discrimination, and I suppose it is in some terms/ways.
But in the atmosphere today, can one blame a taxi man for saying, “no way. I have a life to live.”
So the gal is left waiting for a taxi, on a cold lonely night. That is also not right.
Where is the balance?
EDIT
Darn, I was just headed out when the Calor (company) gas guy showed up to top up the tank (as mentioned before, I live in the sticks so no gas lines coming in, just the natural gas tank).
The Calor guy, Christian, he is from Hungary, emigrated to Ireland five years ago, his girlfriend is from Italy finishing her PhD in Sociology (thesis/dissertaion? Yep, gender harassment or something along those lines) at University of Sussex near Brighton, England (though she is based in Dublin).
My point? We live on a planet, we are a global species. We move, we immigrate/emigrate, and hopefully contribute to society. To the human condition. To the earth and its many lifeforms, flora and fauna.
Am I an idealist? Darn right. Am I a realist? Only when the need arises, hah hah
Gotta leg it now for the bus.
I do these EDITs because I do not want to bump a non-climbing thread to the top nor do I way to be accused of chain-posting as some ass wipe put it. I am feisty, take me on. I use logic and I use emotion, which may sound contradictory, but are they? I usually write from the heart, but sometimes that nuisance of a brain gets involved.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 04:40am PT
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Hah hah Zip that video always cracks me up.
I missed the bus (in more ways than one), so I bicycled home. I have until tomorrow to get money into the credit union, so now I can make a further ass of myself on the Taco Stand.
I gotta make you understand, I'll never give you up Supertopians, never going to lie, never going to desert you.
hah hah funny video.
EDIT
So the gal is left waiting for a taxi, on a cold lonely night. That is also not right.
And Bushwhatever, nice poetry and doggerel, but that is mine. How egotistical of me. But I am a writer, published, and I have written some things on this forum over the past 12 years that have made their way into the 'unknown',. I am not happy with that, I make my living by writing, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
But to quote (attributed to Brendan Behan): "Critics are like eunuchs, they can talk about it but they cannot do it."
And I will use that in time immortal.
Back to the subject, if any neanderthals think that woman have had the upper hand in patriarchal societies, think again. Looking at human history, on an evolutionary basis, and not the creationist Adam and Eve, (or is that Adam, I am Even?), who had the upper hand?
History tells the story.
EDIT
And around the campfire a very good man, Rik Rieder, told me, "this place is a zoo (Camp 4), and the animals have escaped'. I do not know if he recalls saying that to me, but it stuck with me.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:00am PT
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Happiegrrrl2
I know that loneliness. It is not fun.
But if one is strong, that strength helps.
Tears on the pillow do not mean tears for tomorrow. ©
I am a writer, journalist in five countries, and a zoologist. I have been around the block. But it never ceases to amaze me, the human spirit.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:03am PT
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Well, it was the truth when it was posted.
No it was never the truth.
There really are rapists out there, people who were convicted of rape. Someone who is a professor writing a college textbook on criminology did not even get that right. Of all the examples in the world, they choose one that was completely wrong. People will say its just some detail but that is the whole reason there are textbooks....to teach the details!
This ME TOO thing that is happening is both good and bad. There will be more sexual criminal exposed and that is good. There will be more people falsely accused and that is bad. It is good when people tell the TRUTH it is bad when people LIE. This textbook and the magazine article is promoting a LIE.
And now everybody is celebrating the lie because that is what angry mobs do. I've seen western movies too, Mr. Mouse, and the angry mobs do not result in justice.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California, now Ireland
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:08am PT
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Wow, SusanA, if you are genuine, what a statement.
But looking at your previous posts, just how angry are you?
Someone who is a professor writing a college textbook on criminology did not even get that right. Of all the examples in the world, they choose one that was completely wrong.
I do not know if you are right or wrong. I just have known over the years on this forum, Crimpie is pretty solid and upright.
Academics can get it wrong. Sometimes the Ivory Tower soothes them. Sometimes they do not see the real world. Crimpie does not come across that way, if my reading is correct.
As for anybody's CVs I can only attest for my own.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Dec 12, 2017 - 07:22am PT
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You can attack me all you want but I've been though this before. My brother was falsely accused of sexual assault by his ex girlfriend in college. It did not go to trial because there was a security video of the dormitory that shows he was never even there. But he was arrested and accused and nobody believed him except his family and friends but that did not matter. It was a terrifying experience for my family and is still very upsetting many years later. He transferred to a different school and stopped playing baseball because of it. But he was lucky because If it were not for that video his life would be over.
There are evil men but there are evil women too. The TRUTH is what matters. It is not ok to lie to protect women.
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