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justing
climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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There are more non-chipped climbs in California alone than I could climb in a lifetime, even at my modest grade. Why make more?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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How many of you free climbed with pitons only?
I did!
Way harder than using cams and nuts.
word!
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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I never "free climbed with pitons only." I always carried a hammer and a few biners as well! :) Way harder than slotting a nut or a cam.
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nopantsben
climber
europe
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I agree with Jay Smith.
It is interesting to note that most 5.15a and harder climbs in Spain and Italy (Lapsus (15b), First Round First Minute (15b) and Golpe d'Estado (15b), to name but a few) are manufactured.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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In my humble opinion,
What is the goal? Personally I want a fair shot at anything I thought possible. Even if its a tree. A chipped hold would piss me off. Yes many classics are pinned out but not generally the intention and I climb them with that in mind. If I had to do a 13 ft "dyno" and wanted it I'd train.
S...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Hey not to highjack the thread...just wanted to welcome JaySmith to the taco stand.
Been reading about you and your adventures for years.
Great first post!
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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It is interesting to note that most 5.15a and harder climbs in Spain and Italy (Lapsus (15b), First Round First Minute (15b) and Golpe d'Estado (15b), to name but a few) are manufactured.
Any idea to what degree? From the standpoint of cleaning loose rock, or something more aggressive?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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If you own a rock in your back yard, chip away. Otherwise, let nature take its course and leave the rock alone.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2017 - 06:58am PT
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Some of the best examples of chipping and sculpting rock are in Florence, Italy. Go there and check it out...just don’t go in August.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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In the laws of opposites, the next purist generation is probably just being born now. Gotta give the next Big Ideologue Generation time to grow up, and then it will come full circle again, back to hippy hair, mother earth and preaching morals at everyone, all the time.
It is interesting to note that most 5.15a and harder climbs in Spain and Italy (Lapsus (15b), First Round First Minute (15b) and Golpe d'Estado (15b), to name but a few) are manufactured.
DMT is right about the purists to come. Our ideologies will pale in comparison with theirs. Routes such as Burning Down the House will be emulated and celebrated while chipped sport routes will be excluded from relevance.
I recommend that other than for training, cutting edge sport climbers save the time invested on breakthrough grades for natural routes.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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And there in lies the debate Which zone ?
Finale' or where? Sicily?
or where would Donini climb in the summer months along the Mediterranean?
All sorts of routes of lesser quality regardless the grade, can benefit from a change to what the 1st up the route experiences. all the back & forth about the removal of creaky rock, because climbing is dangerous seems weak when I think of the tenants that I climbed by and that taught
if your rope is safe. .
and can, climb past loose rock as the most dangerous thing is to stop. . .
always to pull down not out . .
tread lightly over un-climbed stone . .
If you don't need to, don't touch it
if you strip off every plate and flake, the block that in its very presence defies nature, your taking away the teaching moments that may someday keep some one safe.
I certainly clean and wire brush, appropriately for the region,
And feel that the priority, (given that to -who's stone- aside,)
(Those that would strip mountains, quarry climbing areas)
it is must include the consideration that the stone is not only sacred to the passer-by that touches it
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nopantsben
climber
europe
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Lapsus - Italy's first 15b, is chipped - drilled pockets etc.
Golpe d'estado and FRFM: Not sure.
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WBraun
climber
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Lapsus - Italy's first 15b, is chipped - drilled pockets etc.
So lame.
Modern people want everything artificial because they themselves have become,
Artificial
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chapter IV
Big Wall climber
kinda fluid
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these climbers can only cast
a small vision.
their dream is like, 20-70.
they are masters of the mundane.
because extra-ordinary required courage.
which is difficult to come by.
they may strive, in their journey, for heroics
but they fall grossly short and
in the evening they've nothing inspiring to
share around the pub table, or perhaps to their
spouse.
so in frustration, they dumb-down reality with
tools and gut the mountain until it's venerable
and then they strike: beating their hollow, heartless chest.
they are everywhere, jim.
fear is easy.
though it is not admirable.
so it's purveyors attempt to distract their audience
with sparks and clamor.
though we all really know that they are nothing
but special-needs suitors of our realm.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Anyone who has ever pounded iron knows damn well they are chipping the hell out of the rock.
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thirsty
climber
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Manufacturing holds is offensive, and I am not advocating the following yet, but rather sharing the gist of a conversation we have been having recently in my little circle. Manufacturing/enhancing gear placements might be, in some situations, a necessary compromise to help preserve access. One of the issues being raised (again) by some is that bolts as gear left behind and as permanent installations are more than just deminimus violations of the regulations for different areas including wilderness areas and some state land trust areas. As hikers follow what used to be faint climber trails which have become well worn and inviting paths there has been an increase in complaints about the offensive look of bolts (and chains and fixed draws) in what are supposed to be shared natural areas. Enhancing seams and pockets to create solid removable protection placements can be one way to reduce that conflict and can be especially effective on the portions of routes that are more visible from the ground or those big view points that everyone enjoys. Hikers and land managers don't notice a slightly enhanced crack or pocket the way they do a bolt and hanger. Using such techniques doesn't mean forgoing all bolts, it just means limiting them to crux sections. Fewer bolts means fewer bolts to replace in the future and less onerous work to keep hangers camouflaged. Perhaps if more people start to appreciate the access value of minimizing bolt use generally we might see fewer bolts placed where there are pre-existing removable gear options and reject the idea that calling something a “sport” climb justifies bolts where you can place solid gear with relative ease in relation to the overall rating of the route.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Limestone?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Curious that some of those who sit the highest horses use a whole different ethic when they aid climb.
Why didn't people get as angry when, after Charlie Fowler did the Shield hammerless, people continued to alter it by hammering pins???????
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Didn't bother reading the thread...just another Donini troll.
Reinforcing with glue? Jim's ok with it but that's where it stops.
lol jim.
The second you clean a route, it's been manufactured for climbing.
Every sport climb is essentially manufactured.
Have fun creating climbs on your lame ass choss.
I'm sure it really "adds to the area".
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Ouray is a big chiseled dry tooling gym anyway.
My take is if you don't want to climb on chiseled rock, don't go to that particular crag. And everyone can decide for themselthemselves.
Anyone who has ever pounded iron knows damn well they are chipping the hell out of the rock.
+1.
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