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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 24, 2017 - 06:54am PT
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Do people on this forum stand in line in the wee hours of the morning to get a walk in campsite? I think not. Camp 4 needs expansion but it’s really like adding a few grains of sand to a beach.
The camping in the Valley will never be satisfactory, there are simply too many people in too small of a place.
National Parks with climbing (notable exception: Black Canyon) have maxed out infrastructures. I suppose that climbers from urban areas are more attuned to overcrowding.
Luckily, there is still a lot of public land with climbing that isn’t overcrowded....expand your horizons.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Oct 27, 2017 - 02:11am PT
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What's the latest thoughts on this project? Thumbs up or thumbs down? (And why?)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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I am indifferent. I do line up in the wee hours in the morning, but I do not have any expectations of some amazing nature/historical experience when at C4. It is a legal place to bivy. I always meet interesting people there. The bus parking seems obnoxious, hopefully extensive idling will be prohibited.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Oct 27, 2017 - 11:18pm PT
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I have been asked to comment by Rock and Ice, which is why I am trying to get a gist of what people are thinking about the expansion. I don’t see any downsides to more campsites, though the bus terminal and other aspects of the development seem to have issues. Any other opinions?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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I think it basically goes back to the premise of the particular option of the Merced River Plan selected by the YNP/NPS, "enhanced visitor experience."
One has to wonder what, exactly, that means. In particular, you'd have thought that most climbers would have preferred the "increased visitor self sufficiency" option, which would have drastically reduced services in the Valley, while dramatically increasing camping options.
Along with that would have been a reduction in the ability to supply your stay locally, requiring visits to communities outside of the Valley for supplies.
In the extreme, imagine having to hike into the Valley with all of your supplies on your back. That would put a natural time limit on visits, but would also reduce the accessibility of the Valley to those physically able to make the hike. Limited accessibility to the general public would probably reduce the popularity of YNP, and also reduce political support for the NPS. This is certainly a factor in the existence and maintenance of the "Cable route" on Half Dome, for which major facilities have been built along the trail to accommodate the traffic of a large number of visitors. All in the "wilderness zone." The popularity of that particular trail far outweighs any consideration of preserving the wilderness.
Looking at the Camp 4 improvements in light of the option of full self-sufficiency (i.e. hiking your kit in for miles), climbers could take public transportation into the Valley and arrive at the "destination" of Camp 4 without having to have a personal automobile. That destination is linked to the rest of the Valley by the local shuttle service; off hour transportation would be by foot or perhaps bicycle, an overall reduction in the automobile traffic which drives so many issues (for instance, parking).
Parking for climbs will be affected by the current improvements, curbs to discourage arbitrary off road parking with the paving of some pullouts. Overall the options for parking will be reduced.
Traditional climber hangouts, like El Cap meadow will also be affected in the overall plan as the meadow is restored. However, the complete "restoration" of this meadow would require re-daming the Merced River at the terminal moraine (located across from the "wood lot" turnout west of El Cap meadow) which is not likely to ever happen, as its existence was responsible for the seasonal flooding that resulted in "Lake Yosemite," a phenomenon that maintained the meadow preventing the encroachment of trees, which could not tolerate the ground moisture.
Having accepted the "hand of man" in the remaking of Yosemite Valley, we have little hope to see any coherent application of the idea of wilderness as "...places that humans do not control and have not developed..." in the Valley. This applies to the majority of climbing routes, too.
Given all that, what is the interest of the climbing community in Camp 4 expansion?
more camp sites
larger latrine with shower facilities
better access to transportation
We cannot retain a past that time has taken, we can embrace a future which "enhances" our experience along with the restrictions that entails.
But more importantly, if we wish to have those places Donini refers to remain wild, we have to work to preserve them as "wilderness," which necessitates that they remain difficult to access and generally inconvenient and unaccomodating to us when we visit. To do this, our visits require us to work to preserve their wildness; limit formal campsites, pack waste out, etc..., basically leave no trace, really.
Chouinard lamented in the late 1960s that Yosemite Valley had ceased to be that wild place the early climbers encountered during the "Golden Age." Of course, he drove into the Valley, taking full advantage of human "improvements." Yosemite's fate had been cast long before that time.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 28, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
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Great post Ed, as usual.
If the only reason they're giving for not doing that it's rockfall danger, I would question other developments, particularly roads, the Le Conte Memorial,
As I understand the policy, the rockfall zone only limits overnight camping, other uses are okay. Probabilities of dying I guess?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Oct 29, 2017 - 12:20am PT
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I suppose my reservation about the plan specific to Camp 4 is why they are finding the need to close any of the existing Camp 4 sites. Rockfall? I recall the huge rockfall off Camp 4 wall in the middle of the night in the 80’s. It sounded so loud I rushed out of my tent and ran, cutting my feet. But later had a good look, and it seemed to me the area east of the ditch, where the current rescue site is, seemed safer due to topology, with a larger chance in the Indian area to the west. But of course no place on the valley floor is truly “safe”from rockfall, so I wonder if there is any other reason they plan to close a handful of current sites? In any case, a foreboding precedent to close any existing sites, despite the addition of new sites nearby, which I think is a very good thing, as campsites in Yosemite have only steadily dwindled over the last century.
Edit: Jerry Greenleaf informs me that the to be closed sites are near the Kiosk to make room for the new parking lot. Seems reasonable. But of course the bigger issue is how car centric Yosemite is, and that there is nothing in the plan to move toward a future ideal carless Yosemite.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Oct 31, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
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It seems to me that what is needed is ongoing involvement in the plans and implementation of Camp 4 improvements by climbers' organizations - the Yosemite Climbing Association, American Alpine Club, Access Fund, and so on. Maybe also even manufacturers and retailers of climbing equipment.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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So does anyone have observations and perhaps photos of the work at Camp 4 and vicinity that has been done over the last few months, and is continuing? Report, please!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Remember that Climbers are not the only ones who hold this ground sacred.
The Native community will be impacted by these changes. They were not consulted.
Also- Haven't we just spent the last fifteen years removing asphalt from the Valley Via Facelift?
We are chided by The National Paving Service for picking up Aluminum artifacts from the '60's yet the below fresh pavement caps millennia of human occupation. We shrug and say oh well what's done is done.
Well. looks like the skateboarding will be sweet. And since when has shower ever made a difference in Camp 4?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Joni Mitchell nailed it
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique
And a swinging hot spot
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got til its gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
They took all the trees
And put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half to seem 'em
No no no
Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you've got
Til its gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That lot will fill out nicely as the Starbucks overflow. Maybe they'll also finally install a 1st world place to take a crap.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Jan 11, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
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OK, so they repaved the road, and paved part of the parking lot - as they said they would. Did they put in curbs? What else has been done? Perhaps someone who's familiar with the entire plan could have a look, and let us know what's happening.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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LOL, it's like you guys want more regs and higher fees.
Didn't the Valley have like 5x s many primitive campgrounds before they were shut down one by one?
I'm calling it now: They'll eventually turn Camp 4 into a zoo exhibit where your betters can drive by slowly while taking photos, or choose to drive behind a partition which will keep your visage (and smell?) away from their delicate sensibilities and perfectly brewed Starbucks lattes.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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About two weeks ago.
Camp 4 ranger booth. No change, except (snif!) the absence of Pinky.
New information sign, beside the ranger booth.
New parking lot, looking west. The ranger booth is in the far left distance.
The new parking lot, from across the road. It's in several linked pieces.
Not shown: the fence surrounding the work area, essentially everything east from the parking lot almost to Swan Slab. There was a promising looking foundation for what will probably be the comfort station (toilets, washing up, showers), and other work in progress.
There is/will be a low split timber fence between Camp 4 and the road, which may help channel foot traffic. Backing it up with a hedge, preferably of something pointy, may reduce noise and visual impacts. (A wit suggested poison oak...)
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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well, the paved surface should make transmission swaps go a little smoother.
lucy pointed out a project underway just west of C4 which will be a traditional roundhouse, nice!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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So the Miwuk people are proceeding with rebuilding the site of their last village in the Valley, west of Camp 4. It was named Wahhoga, and the reconstruction is in part being financed by the Yosemite Conservancy ($100,000). Presumably there'll be a good gap between the west end of Camp 4 - once its rebuilding is done - and the village.
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article212274659.html
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