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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
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I see your point Cat.
What bothers me, rather, is this assertion that women are inherently less bold, less brave, and less capable of pushing boundaries than men.
I'm always intrigued by the "inherent" differences in all of us. I would agree that there seems to be something in many women that is inherently less bold than men....which has given way to less opportunity historically for women to be put into situations where they can become or act brave and push boundaries. Minus the women who were outliers and have showed feats of amazing strength and courage and daring and adventure when given or forced into the opportunity. Amelia Earheart and other fantastic, bold women adventurers come to mind. We're talking as a whole about the interesting concept of nature vs. nurture here I think. We all agree that certain individuals have a "nature" that can be shaped by the "nurture".....a scaredy cat young boy being taught to box and becoming a brave young lad on the streets after sticking up for himself with a bully one day....etc.
My wife being orphaned in the streets of Korea...tiny and malnourished, who gets adopted, grows up with white folks in Oklahoma and becomes one of Americas best swimmers...becoming an American record eventually.
It would be interesting to try and flesh out the "inherent" nature as a whole of each sex.....men vs. women, and then see how their environment can and does shape them. I think if we all learn more about our "inherent" nature,....men...women...individuals...it can help us overcome our weaknesses and help us do great things.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
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And when it comes to climbing and swimming and being a NAVY SEAL and weightlifting and track and field, MOST WOMEN ARE NOT AS STRONG OR AS EQUAL OR ACCOMPLISHED AS MOST MEN.
You may be generally right, but I think there's an exception in climbing thin cracks.
Even then, it may be true that most women aren't as good as most men, but I'm not so sure.
Having smaller fingers and hands (and perhaps feet in some instances) is such an advantage that it may well outweigh the advantages that men (on average) have.
At some point, crack climbing becomes impossible for certain hand sizes.
I think we've seen that on Meltdown, which will likely never be climbed by an average sized man. (Perhaps a little boy could do it.)
In climbing in general, it's hard to say, but it seems clear that any advantage men have over women is MUCH less than they have in weightlifting or track and field. (I don't know anything about swimming, but I can believe the difference is big there too.)
The differences are very obvious: in climbing, weight is huge, and women on average weigh less than men. Women who are 5'2'' and 110 pounds or less are very common; men sized like that are extremely rare.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
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Climbing is a very wide ranging activity, with roughly equal numbers of male and female participants
I think you've been climbing long enough to know that is not true today, and has never been true.
I'm done with this thread.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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You may be generally right, but I think there's an exception in climbing thin cracks.
Actually, most women are actually just better and stronger climbers than me in general. That's why I climb ridges. I have very strong calves. But I fall off of finger cracks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
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I suspect Brooke and Scott might disagree with your rearview mirror assessment...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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The truth has no sexist bias, but the selective use of truth to the advantage of one of the sexes has a sexist bias.
It would be interesting to hear about the male use of anabolic steroids during the 80s. How many American climbers had the advantage of using steroids? Telling this story would be to turn it around once more.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
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The crux pitches of The Nose are 1500+ ft off the deck. Not that many climbers capable of climbing at that level want to do it with an approach like that.
The rest of the route is moderate free climbing difficulty by today's standards.
In my view Kev is selectively using part-truth and even displaced "truths" to the disadvantage of women. He' doing this repeatedly and systematically. Like judging Hill's ascent of The Nose by today's standards.
There's more exceptional freaks of nature among men than among women, but you also find exceptional freaks of nature among women.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
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For Marlow: east germany female body builder from 1980's..
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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BigB.
In DDR the state-run sportsadministration fed drugs (possibly telling it was vitamins) to both men and women. In the US individuals administered to themselves, which because of cultural norms meant that more men took the stuff in the US.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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Well, if the nose is just a pile, and the Zodiac is both harder and better quality...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Aug 10, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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be careful what you teach your kids..
different strengths -> different roles for boys and girls.
Yet its what my wife and I teach and instill in our daughters. If more people embraced this ethos the world would be a better place.
Reminds me of my childhood, when I questioned why women couldn't be Catholic Priests. My parents had a whole speech about different strengths and different roles, trying to convince me that just because a woman couldn't be a priest, it didn't mean women were less important, blah blah.
I love my parents, but that explanation sounded like a load of horsesh#t, and was one of the very first things that lead me AWAY from Catholicism and to question religion as a whole.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Was that Jessica Watson? She was bad to the bone! Followed her story mile by mile. Amazing and inspiring.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Aug 10, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
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3 (?) ascents in 14 years.
Denominators of the world, unite!
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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I think the future will bring the sexes closer and closer together in performance on average, as it is a strength in proportion to body weight sort of sport with who knows what new outliers?
I agree. In some athletic venues it seems probable/inevitable.
But some sports like swimming and track and field (which are highly strength to weight driven) will probably never get there. Its a strange thing. The men and women in swimming, despite amazing things done by gals like Katie Ledecky and Missy Franklin, are MILES apart. MILES. Like I hinted upthread, the fastest women in the world....and we are talking true outliers.....ladies who are light years beyond theier female competitors.....are about the speed of a pretty good high school boy. I remember being a freshman in high school and thinking it was cool that I had just broken the women's world record in the 100 FREE.
I think it was recently noted that the fastest 100M freestyle female in the world was about 4,900th in the world if compared to men. Pretty wild and an interesting phenomenon considering how amazing these female athletes are.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
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Hey Kevin,
When was the last time you got laid?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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Why?
1) She's competent. She gets it. She understands big wall climbing systems.
2) She's smart. She listens to instructions, and follows them to the letter the best of her ability, meaning that she is a quick learner.
3) She has the head for the game. She is not easily frightened, in fact, she is more afraid of being afraid than actually being afraid. Get it? You used to climb, so I assume you do.
4) She loves big wall camping! She is great at living high above the ground, and she always maintains a positive attitude, even when the sh|t hits the fan and the going gets tough, and she could even die - she focuses.
5) She can haul, and she actually likes it.
6) There is no sixth thing.
7) She is unabashably adorably cute, and every time I look in her eyes, and see her smile, my heart melts.
8) She is reliable. She never keffles. When she says she'll climb, she does.
There are eight answers to your question.
Kevin Worral - answer my question: when was the last time you got laid?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Answer the question, Kevin Worral: When was the last time you got laid?
Or is buddy above correct? [see comment re. 1" angle piton]
Kevin: they do not call me "Pass the Pitons" Pete for nothin'.....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
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Oh ... you edited your post. [pussy] [d#@&%e canoe]
Note: latter comment supplied by Anita514, classic!
"I don't place a high value on "getting laid", Pete, but I'm surrounded by possibilities"
You don't place a high value on getting laid, Kevin Worral? Well that's a damn good thing, because YOU AIN"T NEVER GONNA GET LAID WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE THAT!!!!
Everyone is surrounded by possibilities, dude. Possibilities of great first ascents, possibilities of making great business investments, possibilities of making great choices that affect one's future, possibilities of writing lame-ass posts on an internet forum constantly, thus undermining one's likelihood of ever getting laid [by a girl] in this, or even the next, lifetime, etc.
Each man makes choices, and each choice he makes has consequences.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
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^^^ Zactly.
Ka-CHING!
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