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Degaine
climber
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Madbolter1 wrote:
Of course, mine is just one example. But, you know, it's a catch-22. Anybody like me that talks about "other cases," is "just babbling second-hand, probably false crap that he's heard." On the other hand, if I cite what I know first-hand, well, then that's "just babbling about one case as if it can be generalized."
You do the exact same thing all the time in here when it comes to views or facts with which you disagree, from healthcare to climate change by way of the 2016 elections. You expect others to bow down to your expertise and first-hand experience but never accept nor defer to the expertise an first-hand experience of others if it does not fit your world view.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Did you trade in your turbo diesel?
I took the buy-back... must be my guilt regarding my choices which led to much increased pollution over my expectation of what I was buying.
The choice of the Prius V was relatively simple... it had slightly better mpg rating, and essentially the same internal size. In the running was the Ford CMax, which was a surprisingly nice car, but it fell short on the interior space.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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If you've not gone to a rigorous graduate program, then you don't know how consuming it is. Also, you get paid effectively nothing as a TA, because it's considered part of your "learning experience." You clearly haven't been there, so you're not qualified to judge what it "should" cost.
I went to graduate school at Columbia U in 1976 and graduated in 1984 with a PhD in physics, that was not an overly long time by that graduate school's standards at the time.
The incoming physics class was supported by NSF grants covering tuition, living in Manhattan was a challenge, but poor people live in Manhattan too. At one point, Debbie became pregnant and was fired from her job, my stipend was pretty small, and we took advantage for qualifying for food stamps for 6 months.
The one room apartment we rented from a Prof. at Sarah-Lawrence was certainly a help.
But I did not require any loans to get through either undergraduate (UCB in 1972 had a $200/quarter fee) or graduate school, and I supported myself (with a huge help from Debbie, of course, who was also supporting herself) through that period.
I do know colleagues that incurred large debts to put themselves through college at that same time.
Many people helped along the way in many ways (not monetarily) and made it possible, for which I will be eternally grateful. My experience was one of being a dirtbag academic...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You expect others to bow down to your expertise and first-hand experience but never accept nor defer to the expertise an first-hand experience of others if it does not fit your world view.
I expect all of us to bow to facts, nothing more.
Cite some facts that demonstrate that Crankster's graphic is indeed representative of systematic mechanics of repression in the last 30 years.
Meanwhile, watch this black woman tell you the same thing I am, if you dare. Seriously, she's just some gal, not a "right-winger" with a channel devoted to telling you what you don't want to hear. She's just a gal with experience of her own telling you that "white privilege" is not real.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Her opinion. I share it.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Although clearly a populist measure meant to tickle Trump's entitled white base, the measure could have unexpected (in the populist sense) results. There is already a lawsuit against Harvard for discrimintation against Asian-Americans (other Ivy League schools are in the same boat). This could become a test piece suit for the Justice Department.
"A Princeton study found that students who identify as Asian need to score 140 points higher on the SAT than whites to have the same chance of admission to private college."
"The lawsuit also cites Harvard’s Asian-American enrollment at 18 percent in 2013, and notes very similar numbers ranging from 14 to 18 percent at other Ivy League colleges, like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Princeton and Yale.
In contrast, it says, in the same year, Asian-Americans made up 34.8 percent of the student body at the University of California, Los Angeles, 32.4 percent at Berkeley and 42.5 percent at Caltech. It attributes the higher numbers in the state university system to the fact that California banned racial preferences by popular referendum in 1996."
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/us/affirmative-action-battle-has-a-new-focus-asian-americans.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
By the way, Asian-Americans are 5.6% of the general population.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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White Christian males are the most oppressed members of America society. No doubt about it!
Look at poor MB1, he had to go to grad school in Santa Barbara. O! the humanity!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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You do the exact same thing all the time in here when it comes to views or facts with which you disagree, from healthcare to climate change by way of the 2016 elections. You expect others to bow down to your expertise and first-hand experience but never accept nor defer to the expertise an first-hand experience of others if it does not fit your world view.
Well said
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c wilmot
climber
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It's odd to see so many argue equality is not fair...
We have a long way to go all right. It's just that the self righteous amongst us are the one's who need to evolve. As long as people continue thinking discrimination is a means of fixing discrimination we will remain a divided society.
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Matt's
climber
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The graph above, in my mind, represents the most important aspect of the various debates over higher education-- prices have been rising in an unsustainable fashion. I honestly believe that no one would be debating the pros and cons of affirmative action if prices had followed what the rest of the CPI was doing.
madbolter-- what graduate program at ucsb were you in that led to massive debt?
best,
matt
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c wilmot
climber
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You seriously think no one would care that race is used as factor if admissions were cheaper?
What if there actually WAS a privilege for being white and whites were given preference based solely on skin color- would you care if admissions were cheap?
This whole debate boils down to those who blame people for things they never did and were never part of based on the color of skin they were born into.
And those who feel each child is born innocent and should therefore have equal access to higher education based on merit- not race
It's crazy how many people in 2017 still want to discriminate against certain groups of people according to what skin color they have
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Matt's
climber
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C wilmot-- affirmative action in higher ed impacts a very small number of people, in the grand scheme of things. Like most issues in higher ed, people focus on what's happened in elite universities, despite this being a tiny sliver of the overall higher ed landscape. See the graph below for a more accurate view of the higher education landscape-- most people don't go to selective colleges; lots of people are in college part-time, etc...
The vast majority of students end up going to schools that accept most applicants-- its a fallacy to think that affirmative action is dramatically reshaping the demographics of higher education.
best,
matt
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So selling out the Cali colleges to Chinese students is affirmative action, right?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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This whole debate boils down to those who blame people for things they never did and were never part of based on the color of skin they were born into.
Actually, it really has little to do with blame and everything to do with legacy. But since you're going with immaculate birth...
It's quite similar to what's happening to Native Americans - in that case it's lingering genocide by other means which is still happening as in 8/3/2017. And guess what? The reservation system we have today? It's part of your personal legacy and inheritance - you are an intrinsic part of it and you are in no way innocent of it.
Similarly the costs of slavery - we're still paying for it today in so many way and you are in no way innocent in that either.
Hell, EU powers colonized the world over the past 300 years and now because of that there has been a reverse colonization of those same EU powers by the peoples of their former colonies. Lots of folks, particularly nationalists, are angry about that, but guess what? Bummer dudes. The citizens of those EU powers today aren't innocent - this inherited legacy of colonization is theirs to deal with - there are no magic wands and no turning back the clock because you don't like the results.
Do these situations suck in a lot ways? Sure. But there is no immaculate birth, no clean slates - this sh#t is the reality on the ground we've inherited, no one is innocent and there's no getting off the bus.
Trying to make some shred of it right is what AF is about and if we did it for another hundred years it still wouldn't begin to make up for the shitstorm we are all personally responsible for.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So selling out the Cali colleges to Chinese students is affirmative action, right?
No, that's what the market will bear - free market capitalism at its best.
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c wilmot
climber
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Matts- I don't justify discrimination with the idea that only a small number of people will have to deal with it
Healyje- you are simply insane.
do you blame Muslims for the "lingering genocide" of 9/11? Every german for the holocaust?
Or does your regressive thinking only apply to white American men currently alive?
Edit- you also write "We are all personally responsible"
Yet you only want to punish people who are born with white skin ( or brown if of Asian descent).go figure
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Having worked for and volunteered in the KernCountyFD in the late 80's, I can understand AffirmAction.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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To continually say we must make amends for past actions is simply not logical.
Fair enough. In a society where 150 years after slavery ended, median black wealth is still only 1/13 of median white wealth, I'd say we only need to make amends until we mend past actions.
To say that no-one should have to make amends for their actions is maybe not a feasible way to run a community-minded/cooperative society. Logical? IMHO, that stuff comes out in the wash.
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c wilmot
climber
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Rbord- you are saying we need to discriminate against the innocent to make amends for the actions of people long dead...
That's like saying the child of a murderer needs to make amends for the sins of their father...
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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c wilmot- you're saying that current actions don't work to maintain the status quo ..
Oh yea I see what you're saying, that murderers are men. I wonder what the status quo belief is about blacks?
You say what you say and I'll say what I say :-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Nuff said.
Crankaloon, I'm still waiting to hear what your graphic MEANS.
What is the finish line?
What EXACTLY are the systematically repressive functions of society that are the mines, etc. in the graphic?
The graphic compares a middle-class guy against a 20-something woman, so what lack of equity does that express?
It's easy to post a graphics that you "just know is true" in some vague way, as if it is "capturing some reality" that is apparently ineffable. But I believe that it "captures" something that is really nothing at all. It captures a vague "impression" that is no the slightest bit more valid because "it" (whatever "it" is) is widely shared among a pile of vague thinkers.
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