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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Ask any feminist - men are disposable
Ah no. They can be trained as belay slaves. Even load humpers.
Susan
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Hi Susan, what do you think about Erin Monahan's article?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...and males are more physiologically wired for it than women.
less talk, more evidence... you got any?
I think not.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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less talk, more evidence... you got any?
"Hold my beer, watch this."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Testosterone increases risk taking behavior
At the extreme ends of climbing, risk taking = higher standards
we know testosterone increases risk taking,
your following assertion, however, is two fold,:
a) extreme climbing equates with risk taking
b) extreme climbing equates with higher standards
I think both are debatable, and invite you to defend your assertions. I think both are highly questionable. Certainly b) has a recent example of the El Cap solo, which didn't push any technical standards, but could certainly be called "extreme" at least in the way I'd define the two words.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
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I like to post controversial topics on forums like these because it usually gets posts from people who otherwise don't spend much time on the Internet. These people have the really fun ideas.
Meanwhile half the posts reinforce the stereotype Erin is referencing, so lol.
Great post Ed, unfortunately while I apply that logic to card games I can't seem to find the true value of risk in life...
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perswig
climber
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Dr. Hartouni, feel free to go hammer and tongs with Warbler, and I thank you for it, but my comment:
Life's just a big Rorschach test...
was agreeing with GDavis about this:
Despite all the legitimate points on either end, the emotional arguments on display and the inevitable descent into madness...
and an observation about all of our responses in this thread.
I'll cop to laughing at all of us, but to suggest I'm being in that moment dismissive or misogynistic seems a bit harsh.
Carry on.
Dale
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nah000
climber
now/here
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The Warbler writes: "I mean cmon lady, just accept that men and women are different"
"As I've suggested, Ed, you and other feminists confidently imply or outright state that female climbers can match male performance, but haven't yet because of the injustices of our patriarchal society. I disagree, from what I've seen, but I have an open mind. Women can be awesome, talk is cheap."
and from what i've seen, The Warbler, just surfs on the coattails of his male brethren... has he matched the performance of his male counterparts?
by his [her?] logic, that must mean he is a woman...
i too have an open mind, and agree that talk is cheap.
so far i have yet to be disproved in my theory...
in all seriousnes TW, you don't seem to understand that the definition of sexism is viewing an individual through the lens of a conceptualized collective.
if ines papert, climbs harder in the alpine than 99.9999% of climbers [male or female] how does your bull crappy about "men and women being different" [as categories] hold any water?
hint: it doesn't.
you confuse facts [the hardest red point free climber at this moment in history is generally assumed to be male] with dubious opinions: men and women, as categories, are "different"...
what you don't want to face is that individuals are way more different, than this category you walk around viewing the world through. there is more variance between random individuals than there are between "men" and "women", or "male" and "female", as categories.
which is kind of the whole point of this conversation.
people should be respected and accepted as the individuals that they are, rather than being viewed through the lens of for example "the best at x is currently white and female which means all white and female necessarily have more potential" or some variation of that type of thinking...
with the usual being, the vicee versa that you are espousing.
you do see how the first part of the statement is just stating a fact, whereas the second half is the definition of racism and sexism [defining an individual's potential based on their color or sex]?
but my favorite part of your purposely twisted logic [What I did say is that mens' physiology, particularly the presence of testosterone, gives them a basically insurmountable advantage over women at the extreme end of climbing, and almost every physical endeavor. I fully realize there are women who can kick ass in all realms on most men. - you do see how you yourself, have to immediately contradict your first statement ...] is your use of "heforshe"...
i'm sure you think it is clever.
a nice way of being politically incorrect, that has the added bonus of being plausibly deniable regarding its connotation.
nice work...
i like that guys like you have to use coded and double entendre language to hint at your true thoughts regarding things.
to me, it means thinking like you are espousing is going the way of the dinosaur...
while i'm sure it will hang on, just like there are those that are still arguing that black and white folks [as categories] are "different", i'm glad to know that it is your type of thinking that has to be coded and slightly in the closet rather than the reverse, as was the case for the thousands of years prior...
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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^^^^^
So, So PC.
You sound just like the rest of the broken records out there.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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^^^^
no need for the whole two letter acronym... until you can show me otherwise, you're good to go with just the last letter...
but, let's hear your rebuttal...
and please be explicit regarding what exactly i said that is incorrect.
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WBraun
climber
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I bet anything Cedar is laughing his ass off at how even Supertopo got trolled by his jokes.
I remember when James trolled you fools with the midnight lightning boulder lightning bolt bullsh#t.
We were laughing our asses off at how you fools got trolled ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Re feminism...
I do identify w feminism though. And I'd call myself a feminist in its most basic definition. I just don't appreciate biological deniers who reject the claim out of ignorance or ideology that men and women are wired differently.
The term is messy though, this is unfortunate.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I am still not convinced that climbing is as simple an athletic activity as swimming or running, and certainly as even those activities extend to longer distances, the gaps between women and men are smaller.
But particularly in open water swimming the differences are much smaller than your 10%.
In climbing, however, you have a climber like Pamela Pak doing hard off-width climbs, and FA'ing them also, as hard as or harder than everyone else. So that is something that suggests that the advantages of being a man in terms of strength do not translate directly into "elite climbing" ability.
Away from your definition of "elite climber" or "extreme climbing" are the rest of us, and that group is much more homogenous, with climbers, men and women, possessing a range of abilities (some quite extraordinary). In this group the differences are much less pronounced.
HFCS, do you climb? I forget what the answer to that is, and you don't actually remind me very often with comments to climbing threads.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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I think Kevin is trying to say that pink is heavy...?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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One thing I've always loved about climbing is that many of my heroes are women. Lynn Hill's free nose (and everything that went into it) basically influenced all of my climbing. I'm not sure what Warbler is arguing...if he is saying women are less likely to be running backs in in the NFL then I agree. If he is saying males have an inherent edge on women in climbing I disagree. Even a casual observer of climbing sees women doing hard core sh#t. I think many of us might agree that the cutting and defining edge of our sport is alpininism. That discipline is dominated by Eastern Europeans raised in the crucible of the Cold War. Not many women in those cultures were provided an opportunity to participate. Also, An important spect of alpine climbing is not getting killed. Who knows what the future may hold??
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Look at Ed, all riding around on his high horse. Even though I agree with politically progressive people on nearly all policy issues, Ed's tone of liberal elitism is exactly what loses me with the progressive movement. Personally, that attitude of "I know what's best for everyone, and if they don't agree with me I'll just shame them with my outrage" is one of the scariest attitudes going on in our political "discourse" these days. Even though I was and am just as concerned about Trump as anyone paying attention, it was exactly the type of attitude that Ed is putting on display here that made me think I could not vote for Hillary. (And by the way Ed, before you shame me for that, we live in a country where a citizen has the right to vote for a third party candidate if they choose to.)
EM wonders if men will accept climbers that look different from themselves at the crag. Well, I do and have for all the years that I have climbed. My partners have included (and still include) women (who btw often climb a lot better than I), people of color, people of many different nationalities, ages and also some old white guys like me. I really don't think a single one of them would accuse me of having been disparaging or disrespectful or not-encouraging in any way as a climbing partner. Nonetheless, to folks like EM and Ed, I am personally responsible for all the transgressions that all men may have committed against any woman at any time, simply because of my race and gender. (Which is particularly ironic in Ed's case because he's an old white guy! Maybe his outrage massages his sense of guilt for being male and white, which seems to motivate many of the liberal elites here in Boulder.)
I have a daughter who I'm raising to be strong, intelligent, capable, and to believe in her ability to do whatever she wants with her life. I want her to be inspired by people who show what is possible in life in a positive way. Not by people whose identity is totally wrapped up in the sense of having been victimized somehow, and who are driven by their sense of entitlement and outrage. In this regard, I have a very strong interest in a world that presents opportunities equally to all. And btw, I also want those opportunities for my son, which I'm sure would outrage EM and Ed. Women and other "oppressed classes" don't own a monopoly on being victimized; (try being an old white guy working in the Boulder public school system. Discrimination is alive and well in some of the places you might least expect it.)
We all have our experiences of having been judged inaccurately by someone that doesn't really know us, and this is what every single one of us that is human should be trying not to do. EM's, Ed's, and Hillary's liberal, elite attitudes do not indicate the path forward, just more of the same.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I think women and men are different
but should be treated as equals
Is this PC or knott?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Equality of opportunity, of course. For starters. It is the 21st century after all, for chrissakes.
Some of my best climbing partners (Ed) have been women. Indeed this summer, a woman is my rope gun, lol!
fyi, Ed, you get ZERO mileage with your 'Do you climb?' retort.
Food for thought: Ad ideam.
And, yes, I have learned over the years not to ever expect an apology or retraction or even clarification for any misreading, misunderstanding, unnecessary quibbling, whatever, on your part.
...
As progressive and "equal opportunity" and "equal humanistic" as I am, there's no doubt I treat a female partner different than a male partner in countless respects and instances in both climbing and living in general.
Example # 111... Were I out climbing with Ed, say, and after getting to the base of a climb after an hour approach (!) we discover we left the god damn rope back at the car, I imagine we might flip a coin to see who runs back to get it (esp if he's just pissed me off). Fair is fair, right (Ed)? But now were I climbing instead with Sasha Duiguilian and this happened, without a doubt, and even if she somehow had pissed me off, it wouldn't cross my mind to flip a coin to see who goes. "I'm on it!"
It's just how I'm wired and raised. I don't know? Progressive? Traditionalist? Feminist? Male? Stand-up guy? lol
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