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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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It's not about "stepping" on a frog.
It most certainly is in a figurative sense, especially if those high and mighty wizards behind the
curtain will not deign to inform us little people how we are supposed to tread more lightly. Or
is it also because they don't really know but can not afford to open the curtain concealing their
tawdry little shell game?
Some years ago I dared to pull the curtain away from the wizard who just happened to be
playing this same game which was supposedly to protect a falcon's nest on a cliff in NM. Now
I happen to know a lot about birds and it just isn't because I'm a bird brain. I was cited while
I was 1.3 miles from said cliff. I appeared in court with voluminous references gleaned
from the UNM library, which is to say I sourced every research paper worldwide that
they had. The gubmint lawyers convinced the kangaroo court judge that my 'evidence' was
unsubstantiated and therefore not admissible. That's justice for you as far as the Forest Circus
sees it. It ain't about truth, let alone what's right, when you play with the gubmint.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 30, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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I fail to see an equally biased point of view from the biologists who recommended the closures.
Except that's how these biologists feed themselves. Eating's a pretty strong motivation for anybody.
Where's Center For Biological Diversity get its money?
If you answered "Suing the government", go to the head of the class.
The CBD biologists are out looking for grounds to sue. If they fail, they lose their jobs.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 30, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
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ED... I appreciate your well written logical reply.
Thank you for adding to this very tricky subject.
IMHO... it would have been better to let Willie continue to be the climbers destination it has always been (for 30+ years at least) because its on the edge of the larger study area. This wouldn't even be an issue if they had taken that path.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 02:09pm PT
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Where's Center For Biological Diversity get its money?
If you answered "Suing the government", go to the head of the class.
The CBD biologists are out looking for grounds to sue. If they fail, they lose their jobs.
actually, if you went to their website and looked at their Annual Report, their support comes largely from grants, donations and their membership, 92%, revenue from "legal returns" is 9%. Now it is possible that those giving the grants and donations and seeking membership might do so because the CBD is willing to sue the government (and anyone else), the revenue is not directly a result of the court cases.
The expenses for their "endangered species" and "public lands" services totals, $4.2M for 2014, in terms of full-time-equivalents for professionals, that would be of order 20 FTEs, that includes all of their projects, and not all of those are biologists.
The CBD claims a 93% success rate in the suits they bring, which means that the defendants are found in violation of the law most of the time...
So even if you would posit the very cynical (and unsupported) assertion that the tens of CBD biologists are compelled to seek cases in order to survive, they are extremely good at finding successful cases, which also require the judiciary to agree... they seem to be making compelling arguments.
This means, of course, the defendants are found in violation. Because of our (the USA) foundational principle of the "rule of law" why would you have it any other way?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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I was cited while I was 1.3 miles from said cliff.
was the area you were climbing in posted closed?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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was the area you were climbing in posted closed?
What's that got to do with it? It used to be legal to refuse blacks
service in a hotel or restaurant. Even when I was cited all the research
clearly showed that falcons were not bothered by people as long as they
were not DIRECTLY ABOVE or within a few hundred feet laterally. The Forest
Circus got some bozo biologist to arbitrarily come up with completely
unfounded criteria. 1.3 miles? Seriously? And BTW, I wasn't climbing,
I just wanted to look at the damn bird and take a hike. Did I mention I
was on a ridge parallel to said cliff and there was also a 1000' canyon
separating the two ridges? Complete insanity.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 03:36pm PT
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you get a ticket for speeding, when you were speeding, and try to argue in traffic court that your speeding was OK because you weren't endangering yourself or anyone else... you're going to pay the ticket...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
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I got a ticket for speeding once.
The trooper said I was going over 90 mph.
I was going 62 mph.
The judge said I was speeding because my tires were snow tires and my odometer wasn't working correctly.
What a load of bullsh!t !!!!
I told the judge if she could get my car up to 90 mph I will pay the fine and double it.
The judge could not and she was clocked at 60 mph with radar test so my odmeter was not defective and on the ball.
I told the judge the trooper had his radar on stationary.
The judge asked how do I know. I told judge I'm a professional installer for law enforcement vehicles and install and test the same radar CHP uses.
Judge tears up ticket and says you can go now .......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
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you weren't speeding (ok 2 mph over... maybe)
that's different and not entirely analogous...
when was the last time you violated a raptor cliff closure in Yosemite claiming your presence didn't matter to the birds?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
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I violated several times and stole their eggs and then when their eggs hatched I put their newborn chicks into their nest.
I did not speed. The speed limit was 70 mph on that freeway section.
The trooper made a rookie error. If you leave the radar on stationary setting and forget to put in moving setting when driving the readings will become erroneously high.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 30, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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WBraun, how many others did not fight the ticket? Easy money!
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Dec 31, 2016 - 08:42am PT
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The last few years that Williamson was open was a 12-ring circus and a complete shitshow on the weekends and I have no doubt that the ANF welcomed closing it.
So CBD has some good stats on winning cases and a judge sided with them here. What else do we know? Who fought on our side? Anybody? Did the government? Access Fund? Did they advocate for continued access or roll over? It is an adversarial system, no? So maybe the loss of access wasn't such a moment of truth and justice if no one showed up to argue for the other side. I don't know.
I do know that at the time access was getting shut down we were told to stay silent- to not call, email, or write the ANF at all. That it would make matters worse, etc., and to connect through FoW/Access Fund. I felt at the time this was the wrong thing to do. In the city, the way we deal with government is to be the biggest pain in the ass possible, the squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease method. That's what works. That, and suing. We did not do that here. Now Willy is mostly forgotten and getting people involved is an uphill battle. They divided and conquered.
I agree with those here that feel let down by the Access Fund and cannot support them. I do not know what their statistics of success (in court) are, did Ed H. mention that along with CBD? Charity Navigator gives them 3 stars, that's OK. That Brady guy only makes a little over 100K, not egregious, I guess, for the amount of work involved. They lost here and they lost at Cave Rock. I'm not a fan.
In the city, we have another maxim- eyes on the street keep crime down. Activated and busy streets have less crime. Places that are walled off embolden criminals, it gives them a safe haven. Same thing at Willy. Take away the climbers (the eyes on the street) and criminals moved in. So now you have growers up stream, which I would guess are hurting the frogs WAY more than the climbers ever did. Unintended consequences, eh, and will probably never be honestly accounted for in any scientific arguments of the status of the frogs. But like I said, managing all those climbers was a PITA and having it closed made peoples jobs easier as they coasted toward retirement.
There were plenty of snakes in that creek. I suppose they were eating frogs.
I would support raptor closures. Some years the falcons would scream like mad and the dumbshit climbers would just continue climbing up near the top, near the nest.
If enough people really cared, there could be a civil disobedience day. Get 200 people to show up and climb and get arrested, press, and all that. Who's up for that? Not me. Face it, how bad do we really care? Those stupid cowboys can do it, but climbers just don't care to put real skin in the game. It'll probably open for the next generation in 20 years.
Oh, and no way is the climbing at the Tunnels close to Williamson.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 31, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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Wow.
Heyzues pretty much nails it. It's the climbing community's apathy and lack of cohesion that allowed Williamson to remain closed.
In 2003 mylf tadpoles were found 1000 ft downstream of Voices wall.
No proof was ever provided that climbers posed a hazard to these critters.
CBD got hold of this info and immediately threatened lawsuits with ANF and F&W.
They caved within 2 years and the result is a dozen years of lockdown.
Ed Hartouni's distant armchair analysis is typical of the ignorance that perpetuates the misinformation that keeps Williamson closed.
Judges buy this crap, CBD loves it and the frogs could care less.
Edit: Ed Hartouni's misunderstanding of how the CBD works:
So even if you would posit the very cynical (and unsupported) assertion that the tens of CBD biologists are compelled to seek cases in order to survive, they are extremely good at finding successful cases, which also require the judiciary to agree... they seem to be making compelling arguments.
This means, of course, the defendants are found in violation. Because of our (the USA) foundational principle of the "rule of law" why would you have it any other way?
The CBD knows how to play the system. They know most of their lawsuits are frivolous. They also know the agencies sued often times do not have or do not want to designate the million$$ needed to fight and will likely take the easy way out.
It has nothing to do with truth or justice.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 09:30am PT
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I was trying to explain some of this to Debbie last night at dinner and she was getting very annoyed at me for being very vague about the participation of the climbing community in the Angeles Forest management plan.
As far as I can read of all those documents, climbing is not mentioned anywhere... the mountain bikers seem to have been far more engaged in the process.
This is a major fail on the part of the climbing community. The coalition of parties bringing suit against the government, CBD, Sierra Club, CNPS, DOW and Los Padres ForestWatch all have some stake in making sure that the various studies required as a basis for the management plans are done correctly. None of these organizations expected their position to be supported by someone else.
As far as I can recall in this long time whine from the climbing community, there has been no active participation from the local climbing groups in the process. Apparently, the idea of a "fairy litigator" that would appear and save their access was widely held... when that fantasy failed to materialize the result was more whining about individual liberties, tyrannical government and all that schtick...
I'm sure there is a story that excuses the local climbing community from the very uncharacteristic-of-climbers act of organizing. But if you aren't a part of the process you cannot expect your interests to be recognized.
On January 14, 2015 Jeffery Vail, Forest Supervisor, wrote the Forest Order No. 01-16-01 which "authorized the continued temporary closure of the Williamson Rock area... in effect from January 15, 2015 through January 14, 2017..."
This order lays out the concerns of this Supervisor, they seem reasonable and not all that unusual, and not only affect the climbing community but required rerouting the PCNST. There is mention of meeting with representatives of the local climbing community.
This order asserts that the Supervisor has decided this act falls under the "prohibitions to provide short-term resource protection or to protect public health and safety" category, in other words, at his discretion and without review.
It appears some action is forthcoming in the next 2 weeks... unless some other order which I haven't found says different. The fact that those writing here seem unaware of the period of this order, and have no idea what is in store for Williamson Rock, seems to indicate a disconnect.
Is it possible that something is going on and that the posters on STForum are unaware of those goings-on?
Who were the "representatives of the local climbing community"?
The Supervisor cites the following issues:
"Interface between recreational forest users and the MYLF is a subject of concern at Williamson Rock. Recreation activities within the creek habitat may lead to disturbance of egg masses, trampling of individual frogs, capture and handling of tadpoles and adult frogs, and generalized disruption of mating and migration. Recreation may also impact habitat by altering streambeds and denuding banks, and lead to the introduction of pollutants and garbage into the creek. Due to remoteness and current lack of facilities, human waste may also contaminate critical habitat because of it is not disposed of properly."
I have no idea whether or not any of this is correct. As far as the MYLF issue is concerned, it should be subject to proper studies by biologists who can establish the presence of the MYLF. This sort of study takes time, but the order explicitly states that "this decision may be categorically excluded from documentation in an EIS or EA under the National Environmental Policy Act." Apparently this went unchallenged by the climbing community. It leaves the Supervisor's judgment as the sole determining factor in the closure. (By the way, organizations like the CBD litigate to make sure such studies are done, and that the decisions are not made at the discretion of individuals, in other words, that the environmental laws are followed, this works both ways).
As far as dealing with human waste, the climbers have to clean-up their act... and similarly with tromping in and around the creek bed. The details of how this is done, e.g. establishment of access trails, monitoring climber behavior, and all that, would seem to be, at least in major part, a climber organization sort of activity. Obviously complaining that this is an "outrageous infringement of our right to climb" isn't going to go very far.
Anyway, lots of complaining here... if you really value climbing at Williamson Rock, you should do the work to be allowed the privilege.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 09:36am PT
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The CBD knows how to play the system.
and the climber's should learn how, and pretty quickly, if they want to be heard in the process...
right now the train has left the station, and the climbers are bickering on the platform arguing about why no one waited for them to get on board.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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In 2003 mylf tadpoles were found 1000 ft downstream of Voices wall.
No proof was ever provided that climbers posed a hazard to these critters.
talk about ignorance... what "proof" is necessary?
The Supervisor's order laid out the concerns... you are saying they are unreasonable? talk is cheap...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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Ed, I've met with three of the revolving door Supervisors of the ANF over the last 12 years. They sign what's put in front of them.
Edit:
Warbler,
I had over 100 people that were willing to donate time to help implement the proposed "fixes" put together by the ANF back in 2007-08.
This was presented to then Superintendent Bob Blount at Congressman Howard McKeon's offce with F&W, AF and others present.
Another meeting 2 years later had no effect.
Friends of Williamson's Troy Mahr did in fact tell the climbing community not to write or call to protest in the early years of the closure but, in hindsight, I'm not sure the local climbing groups were interested enough to actually do this anyway.
It's been an uphill battle. I can now only devote a small amount of time to it but try to stay current.
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