Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:19am PT
|
From Wright Flyer to Boeing 787.
From ENIAC to Tianhe-2.
And it can easily be pointed out that the world is in much more dire straits
over the time span of those 'achievements'. One achievement mankind is
still no closer to is that of cooperation. MILLIONS in the USA go to bed hungry.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:38am PT
|
Variety is the spice of life. Just imagine how bland supertopo would be without cosmic, wb, blu and the great mf!
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:39am PT
|
Human population is more the problem...
No real need to inflict that on any other planet...
|
|
pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:45am PT
|
Werner can greet them
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 08:40am PT
|
Many here haven't thought through the impact of a program such as the one Musk is proposing, and instead revert to the hand-wringing sob stories about the money being spent could be otherwise used to provide for the "unemployed masses." How the Hell do you think Musk is accomplishing these tasks? Do his scientists and engineers al work for free? He's putting lots of $$$ into the economy as a result of employment, and those people working for him all have to pay taxes! He also pays lease fees to the U.S. Government for use of Space Launch Complex 39 & 40 at Cape Canaveral. He also pays for a launch pad at Vandenburg AFB in Kalifornia. That crew he employs there is a significant impact on the local economy. Consider how much real estate tax he's paying into the Hawthorne economy. So--you guys want him to abandon his "worthless efforts" and quit paying salaries, taxes, etc., simply because you don't think the money he's spending does any good "Right Here on Earth?"
Narcissistic? It's hard to be humble when you're great. That phrase was frequently used to describe Douglas MacArthur's opinion of himself, too.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 08:49am PT
|
When these do-gooders like Reilly and the Great Mark Force cash in their travel budgets and climbing gear and other sports paraphernalia, also their finer homes, to feed the hungry, then they're worth listening to, not before.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 08:58am PT
|
HFCS, I sold my crack house in Newport Beach last year and paid enough in taxes to
subsidize Elon Musk's nice scam for, like, five minutes! Is he feeding the
poor any more than me on a per capita basis? I highly doubt it.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:02am PT
|
Anyone who doesn't expect ecological boom and bust cycles (incl social collapses large and small) to be a normal, natural part of human and post-human history over the next 5,000 years-plus is living in fantasy and probably some science illiteracy.
The trick, and also our strength as a species, is to continue with the Great Civilization Project long-term despite these setbacks (ecological and otherwise). Types like Elon Musk help ensure this succeeds. He's a long-term visionary. The world could use a few more like him. And whats more, by the looks of this thread, the world could use a few tens of million more regular Joes and Janes too, to appreciate the leadership and long-term vision of these innovators/entrepreneurs as well.
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:14am PT
|
How much taxmoney goes to support the free tesla charging stations?
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:18am PT
|
As a P.S. to my previous post, Musk is doing ALL his manufacturing in Hawthorne, California; none of the components are made in Mexico or China. As he describes his operation: metal comes in one door--rockets go out the other door. Ford, Chrysler, and GM have all shipped their good paying manufacturing jobs out of country. Do YOU enjoy calling Microsoft for support and get an "expert" who barely speaks English? Then thank Bill Gates if you do. So..I doubt that any of Elon's employees send their children to bed hungry.
A critical read for all the nay-sayers here: Entering Space; Creating a Space-Faring Civilization. It really isn't necessary to read the entire book, and only 2 pages of the Introduction will serve to explain the "Pax Mundata" arguments being offered here as to why we should remain in our intellectual cocoons.
A hundred years from now--no one will even recall the issues of abortion, gun control, immigration, etc., but will revere the names of the individuals who made the Universe accessable to humankind.
|
|
c wilmot
climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:26am PT
|
Musk blamed the falcon9 rocket failure on a strut from an external supplier
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 09:31am PT
|
OK, DMT! Here's the "pop quiz for the day!" What happened in 1492?
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:02am PT
|
A critical read for all the nay-sayers here: Entering Space; Creating a Space-Faring Civilization.
I'm not a nay-sayer and Zubrin is an engineer, not a biologist. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it's biologically impossible for humans to live anywhere but planet Earth for any but the briefest of periods. We will never colonize other planets or travel interstellar space because we cannot survive off this very particular world. No creature sufficiently complex enough to exhibit intelligence will ever live off-world due to any number of biological and ecological constraints. If you want to colonize other planets and interstellar space you're going to have to do it with tardigrades and spore-capable bacteria - not complex organisms, as their biological dependency trees are much to large and complex.
As far as what happened in 1492? A microbiologically-driven genocide was kicked off with the introduction of new pathogens from the old world. It was a unintentional genocide (later intentional with smallpox blankets), but a very real consequence of people migrating across the oceans. And that was here on Earth and was basically nothing compared to what would happen to humans exposed to new pathogens on another habitable planet.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:06am PT
|
BDC, Have you run some figures on the cost of running a couple of guys out to Mars and back with a bucket of rocks?
There seems to be a disconnect here.
The resource use associated with this endeavor isn't being considered - it's not just the technological hurdles.
Yeah, I get it's fun to think about. The other issue is who does it serve?
This reminds me of people being all proud of their electric cars without accounting for how that electricity gets made or the ugly and overlooked issue of producing and dealing with batteries or just the reality of that resource being distinctly limited relative to population.
A distinct lack of systems thinking.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:11am PT
|
"A distinct lack of systems thinking."
So you're the systems guy? Lol
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 10:24am PT
|
Actually the "big news" in 1492 was there was a new Pope, and the richest man in the world died. No one paid any attention that some Italian weaver's son wanted to go sail off the edge of the Earth, funded by Queen Isabella of Spain. In fact, had that goofy weaver's son not found a "new world," no one would even have a clue as the identity of the name of the Spanish queen.
To answer Mark; there really isn't a plan to send a "quickie" expedition to the Martian surface in the manner of the Apollo Moon landings. Robert Zubrin's original Mars Direct proposal, after suitable modification at NASA, has been expanded and renamed the "NASA Design Reference Mission." The cost of sending a team of 7 astronauts to the Martian surface has been estimated at $30 to $40 billion if done by the Government, with costs spread out over 10 years on the program; well within NASA's existing budget of $19 Billion per year. That includes a stay time of 1 1/2 years with major planetary exploration. What makes the plan more feasible is the amount of actual research that can be accomplished by a team of 7 scientists in that time frame, and a good financial return on the money spent. Establishing a permanent human presence there wouldn't cost all that much once the interplanetary hardware has been built. Musk estimates that SpaceX can accomplish the same task for less than $10 Billion using the reusable booster technology already "in hand."
Anyone who has ever been a rockhound or fossil hunter realizes that it's a lot of searching and hard work if anything worthwhile is to be accomplished; that means lots of boots on the ground time, and no robotic probe I know of can accomplish that sort of hard paleontology. The problem with robotic probes is their strictly limited mobility and capability to do a wide variety of tasks spontaneously.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:26am PT
|
HFCS, do you have a particular point to make or are you just casting aspersion?
Here, I'll lead..
Your posting here appears to have a distinct lack of systems thinking for the reasons I've cited.
Your postings tend to drift into the realm of scientism to the detriment of science.
There is pure science for wonder, discovery, understanding, to uncover more questions to explore.
There is utilitarian science (i.e. knowing conversion of methylmalonic acid to succinyl-CoA in the citric acid cycle is promoted by hydroxocobalamin - but not by methylcobalamin - and all of the relationships that particular phenomenon effects).
Then there is the self-aggrandizing science that satisfies a few elitists egos.
|
|
Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:32am PT
|
... nothing compared to what would happen to humans exposed to new pathogens on another habitable planet. To survive within humans (a more or less necessary requirement for a human pathogen) an organism pretty much has to evolve among humans - or at least among creatures with a similar biology.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 10:39am PT
|
Sula-
You beat me to the punch with your response to healyje. The basis in biochemistry means "D-carbohydrates, and L-amino acid based life."
No, DMT, Columbus didn't default on his contract with the King of Spain, but with the Queen. Doesn't matter today that he was a rapist, as that makes us all feeling "guilty by association," eh? My point was--what was considered important then has absolutely no significance today. You're simply engaging in mental masturbation. Feels good to you, but has no lasting intellectual significance.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!