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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I've mentioned it before, but some did an FA that crosses Paradise Lost and adds a bit of fixed gear to it. Thanks for sharing your sense of its special place in Middle Cathedral history, Roger.
Thanks for the nod, Ed. Even though my bf is a zillion times better than me, and I probably take more dirt on the head at the belay than I take the sharp end with the drill, I still scope out and lead up the occasional new route myself.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Great thread and some excelent insight by Roger, Largo, Steve, Jeff, Jan, Kevin, and Peter (people who were there).
Climbing slab/face and getting comfortable with the techiques is essential (as people were years back) if you are really going to evaluate whether some of these routes are reasonably protected or not. Most of these climbs have adequate pro, where you need it.
The broad spectrum of people who have entered the sport in recent years have been able develop amazing power and technique because risk has been minimized. Many sport routes amount to hard bouldering on the end of a rope.
But, in honing the physical aspect of climbing, often mental prowess is neglected. The resulting atrophy of the mental aspects of climbing have resulted in a dramatic change in the mental outlook and expectations of many of today's climbers.
This is not to say that ego was not involved to some degree in establishing bolted routes. We often pushed each other, creating a tension between taking away the mental challenge and spirituality of movement and keeping the climb sane. Sometimes the line was crossed; most of the time a balance was struck.
Balance is important in face climbing. Perfect balance comes where the body is attuned to the rock -- and the constant force of gravity -- and where the mind is at peace (or at least remains in control).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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"But, in honing the physical aspect of climbing, often mental prowess is neglected. The resulting atrophy of the mental aspects of climbing have resulted in a dramatic change in the mental outlook and expectations of many of today's climbers."
Spot on Randy.
The next question for all of us is, given this, do we need a new or modified rating system in the US?
And would such a system help preserve the appeal of slab and other climbs? So many are so concerned with numbers - if we had a rating system that gave a high number/grade to committing, scary routes, do you think it would help preserve those routes over time?
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TimM
Trad climber
near Joshua Tree
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"And would such a system help preserve the appeal of slab and other climbs? So many are so concerned with numbers - if we had a rating system that gave a high number/grade to committing, scary routes, do you think it would help preserve those routes over time?"
Isn't that the essence of the British system ??
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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When in doubt think of Noob!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Greg - I kind of liked that movie rating thing with the GP, PG, R and X. Whatever happened to that? Seemed like it was getting popular for awhile. At least that kind of system lets a climber know what he's getting into if he's never done the route... JB
Oh yeah, Robbin's "Grey Ghost" = 5.9 R/X ?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey JB, yeah that's popular and well-used. But it is still pretty limited, very grade biased, and even less standard across areas than the YDS. A PG/R in Tuolumne might be an X-rated route in many areas, and a runout easy route gets a PG when a hard route with the same runout gets an R/X.
And I guess another aspect has to be addressed - many modern climbers have no idea how to climb slab at all - so the YDS rating means little or nothing. Gym climbers start out on "5.8" routes that are slightly overhung 4th class and require zero footwork.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Exactly right...those letters off to the right of the numbers...yeah, those mean sumthin'
PG = pretty good? probably not
R = you peel...you squeal
X = better to stay home and surf porn
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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But every climb is not for every climber; the ultimate climbs are not democratic. The fortunate climbs protect themselves by being unprotectable and remain a challenge that can be solved only by boldness and committment backed solidly by technique. Climbs that are forced clean by the application of boldness should be similarly respected, lest a climber be guilty of destroying a line for the futures capable climbers to satisfy his impatient ego in the present--by waiting he might become one of the future capables. Waiting is also necessary; every climb has its time, which need not be today.
Besides leaving alone what one cannot climb in good style, there are some practical corollaries of boldness in free climbing. Learning to climb down is valuable for retreating from a clean and bold place that gets too airy. And having the humility to back off rather than continue in bad style-- a thing well begun is not lost. The experience cannot be taken away. By such a system there can never be "last great problems" but only "next great problems."
Carried out, these practices would tend to lead from quantitative to qualitative standards of climbing, an assertion that the climbing experience cannot be measured by an expression of pitches per hour, that a climb cannot be reduced to maps and decimals. That the motions of climbing, the sharpness of the environment, the climber's reactions are still only themselves, and their dividends of joy personal and private.
YC and DR '72
Forest,
Glad to hear that my routes were worth the wait for you. I used to think that my bold and creative efforts didn't really get much appreciation by the community at large. As time goes by, I hear more and people like yourself chiming in that the routes indeed have a special value because of the demands of boldness and self-reliance central to my climbing style and hence vital to solving the climbing puzzles that I leave behing while establishing new routes. My lines leave no less of a lasting impression on me while working them out on the sharp end. Do you have a favorite testpiece of mine?
Karl,
It is becoming abundantly clear that us old timers are going to be the ones to preserve and restore these gems. I have been down in the stainless steel mines and have invented the pin-bolt as a lasting alternative. More soon- Steve
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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The golden rule of the outdoors...as my dear ol' dad used to say:
"Boy, don't get your ass into something that your mind can't get you out of."
If you can't get out, then don't go in.
Common sense is becoming less common
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Hats off to Rik and Ray's effort on Paradise Lost. I think I did the 3rd ascent of that route, and the 4th free ascent of the rotue to the right--the DNB. The thing is, the rock here is way more featured than the bald slabs to the left and on the Freewheelin' slab, and so route finding is much easier--and so is the climbing. There's only one small bit of 5.10 on PL (a traverse off a 1" angle), whereas the other routes mentioned are rarely easier than 5.9, with stacks of very inobvious 5.10. I look at PL as a bridege route between the old stuff like DNB, Sachar/Fredricks, and East Buttress, all of which had some face climbing, and the more open face routes like Stoners and Freewheelin'. That much said, PL was in keeping with the run-out ethic of the time insofar as anything 5.8 and below is basically sans pro.
JL
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I think that runout slab climbing is still alive, but it's a very tiny percentage of the climbing population who partake.
I still enjoy the occasional runout route, and recently tried The Edge. I got spooked when a foot chip blew off as I wandered out above the first arete bolt and bailed. I'll be back though. I just feel that I need to work at it, and get a little more comfortable on that difficulty of climbing before committing to something so serious. That said, it was hard for me to even find a belayer for the climb! I even had trouble finding a follower for EBGBs once!
Most people are used to climbing on positive holds in our gym climbing/training era, and either want something steep with holds, or a crack to plug gear into. The insecurity of slab climbing just isn't for everyone, and there are a lot of other options with the advent of rappel bolting!
However, there are some of us out there that enjoy smearing and keeping it cool out over a bolt. I'm looking forward to finding a partner, possibly next year, to attempt Galactic Hitchhiker (although that doesn't sound too runout) and on my Yosemite hitlist has been Stoner's Highway ever since JL posted it was one of his favorite all time routes a few years ago.
I have some friends who are working on putting up an FA in the sierras that will follow a spectacular dike. So far it has all been ground up and has had at least one runout so long that a bolt was added after putting in a belay. I'm looking forward to helping my friends with their project, if they'll let me. There's a small population out there that enjoys that stuff. They're few and far between, but they're out there.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Do you have a favorite testpiece of mine?
Hardly a testpiece, I'm sure, but one of my favorite examples is the "5.7R" section of Absinthe of Mallet. It was a truly unique, and scary-as-hell-after-the-fact experience for me. Alas, for better or for worse, another of the FAs has changed the last few pitches of that route, rerouting another route up that way with more bolts where there didn't used to be, so I doubt if I or anyone else will ever experience that particular sequence quite the same way again, unless they're explicitly trying to reproduce the original experience.
All I remember thinking when I was actually climbing it was, "you really better not f*#k this up." We had linked some pitches and were using a 70m rope, so my belayer was way way out of site below me.
Tho it was years ago, that day actually remains one of my favorite climbing outings of all time.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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PG = Pretty Gripped
R = Really Gripped
X = XXXXXX all over the place if I fall
In retrospect, and given the current rating system, I think a lot of the thin slab route's ratings will be modified upwards at some point in the future. Compared to current practice, that sort of climbing had the ratings pretty compressed toward the end there and I think this will need to be adjusted in the future. Whether this is partially as a result of people no longer having the same skill set, or as a result of the rating band really changing, or that these routes really were ratings compressed, I am not going to venture an opinion. But this will happen at some point.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Ratings have been and always will be subjective
a 5.9 crack is a hell of a lot easier for me than a 5.9 slab...whereas, my partner cruises the slabs and can't seem to figure out jams to save his life.
Crack, slab, face...different types of climbing...different technique. Learn the technique...increase your grades for that type of climbing.
With regards to ratings established many moons ago...yeah, they're probably a tad off by today's standards (think Yos, JT, Tahquitz, Gunks)...that's why we have discussions like, "Dude, guidebook says it's .9...feels like .10c!" and then that person tells his friend...and that person tells his friend...and then the new guidebook comes out calling it a .10a
Double Cross in Josh...you'll hear all the time..."man, that's no 5.7+!"...and another person will pipe up, "you're right...feels like 5.6" and everyone laughs
You gotta know that a 5.12 climber putting up say a 5.10a route is going to have a different feel for the route than a solid .10a climber
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Of course ratings are always subjective.
My question is simple: if the climbing community modified the ratings of "old-school" routes in some fashion or other, could we create more respect for such routes in the current/future generations of climbers?
Thereby leading to less chance of future retrobolting?
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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to say that a 5.10c slab is an .11a because the bolts are 30' apart?
(not trying to argue...looking for clarification)
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I'm not advocating any particular system of rating, although I guess we might need to in order for good discussion.
Just wondering if people think that re-rating or modifying ratings would, if done well, encourage more respect for scary climbs.
Obviously an X rating in Tuolumne already does that.
But even there it is very grade biased, with many easy routes which would have X ratings if harder get only R (eg Apparition) or even PG/R (eg Great Pumpkin). Actually, The Coming has 5.6/7 moves on a 5.9 route 70' out from pro on low-angle knobs - and it's PG (which in Tuolumne means "excellent pro").
More to the point - with gyms and many modern sport routes, good pro has been redefined and even Owens sport routes are now "runout" (eg the 5.9's on the left side of China wall).
There is this nebulous PG, R, X system - but it is very vague especially for those who are just starting climbing.
Would a number or further refinement of the runout ratings - especially one to make climbing such routes seem "sexy" for the current/future generations - help preserve scary climbing routes and history in the era of positive hold routes that require little skill and lots of power?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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New counter question to the original question in the first post...
Is there a way to graph the difficulty of runout labelled climbs from guidebook data (Yosemite as a sample) such that we get a sense of what time frames crossed with what difficulties that yield R or X slab routes?
Even a subjectively collated graph would be cool as a starting point for a new discussion on this question.
Maybe it might point to a time and series of people who were the "origin" of runout slab climbing?
side note - i hated reading Steve Grossman's post above on the qualitative aspects of runout climbs because it requires more of us. I have very little more of me, so I feel insignificant, but I will try and toil in obscurity.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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The system in place works(R/RX).Thats all you need to know, or do we need the government to get involved tell us to wear helmets & seat belts.rg
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