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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Crunch,
I think that fine piece of tat might just win the Jingus Award on this tread. I hope it was placed in perpetual shadow at least! Nice piton hanger too. I bet The Inverted Staircase on Fairview still sports these soft iron gems to protect 5.10 climbing!
Brian, I bet you are right about source of the poptops being overseas. A lot of imported gear got finish stamped by the distributer once it arrived and shipping out unmarked hardware may explain the mystery. Everybody involved might have been reluctant to hitch their wagon to an experimental piece of gear with obvious failure potential and consequences. Just a thought. They do wink at you as Gaston runs it out.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Hey Clint, at least some of those aluminum pop-top hangers (or near-identical ones) say "W. Germany" on the underside of the clip-in point.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Probably Salewa then? You would almost have to find an old 60's catalog to nail it down or some old 60's brains.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Dec 10, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
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SMC hanger on a rusty old wood screw. Prolly not safe.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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Steve speculated:
> I bet The Inverted Staircase on Fairview still sports these soft iron gems to protect 5.10 climbing!
You would have been right until 1998. Then in 1998 and 2002 most of the old bolts on Inverted Staircase were replaced by ASCA folks. I remember running into Lawrence Garcia on top of Fairveiw in 2002 - he had just hiked up the backside to replace the top 2 bolts.
Edit: I did it in 2004, and there was only one old bolt left - in the middle of p6, after the actual inverted staircase. That bolt is not really needed, given modern gear, so it doesn't really need to be replaced. It might not even be original - it didn't look like it was from 1962.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/tuolumne.htm
I look forward to your ideas on improving bolt-pulling technology. The tuning fork usually works great on the commonly found old 1/4" x 1" splitshaft rawls, pulling them quickly and with very little scratching on the rock surface. I have had more trouble and cratering (excessive chipping of rock around the hole) a few times when pulling longer 1/4" bolts from harder granite with more quartz.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
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Clint, I'm glad those old bolts disappeared from the Inverted Staircase. I don't think the hangers would've failed, but the bolts themselves were pure shizzle.
Fork pullers work great as long as you're thinking about minimizing damage. As I mentioned on another thread, I'm in the process of fabricating some block pullers for 1/4" and 3/8" bolts. As soon as I have some in hand, I will post images and send a few out to people like you and Greg who actively do anchor work. The design I'm trying to modify and improve is an old one in concept. I appreciate your interest and support for the best restoration solutions. Unfortunately, I have more ideas at the moment than time....
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 10, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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Steve, I'd be psyched to try it. Tuning forks work great for most rock and most bolts, but cratering is a real problem for some types of rock, and even light scratching looks very bad on certain rock types (especially the dark patina at Red Rocks when the underlying rock is white/tan).
Would the 3/8" design work for 5/16" buttonheads? Getting those out in not-great-quality granite is where I've had the most trouble with cratering (note: 5/16" buttonheads are usually bomber, the ones I'm talking about had Leeper or other bad hangers).
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Dec 11, 2006 - 03:27pm PT
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In Eldorado Canyon a couple years ago, I tried using a jack from my truck to pull out some old rusty 1/4 inch buttonheads. The top of the jack has a shallow groove and a loop of webbing sits in this groove and is attached to a carabiner clipped into the hanger. Place the jack on the rock right next to the old bolt, and carefully crank it snug. Keep cranking.
This worked, and bolts were pulled out about 1/4 inch or so very easily.
Problems:
1. The jack is heavy, and great care needs to be taken not to drop it or the bar used for tightening.
2 The jack sits next to the bolt, so creating a pull that is not quite straight out, but at a slight angle, so requiring a hand free to stop the jack flopping over.
3. The major problem was the stretch in the webbing, and especially the knot tied in the webbing. Even with the play available with a 4x4 truck jack, I was only able to pull the bolts out a 1/4 inch at a time before I'd run out of adjustment in the jack.
So a car jack works, but a non-stretch AND adjustable AND strong connection to the bolt hanger would hugely improve useability. Some way of centering the jack over the bolt would be real nice too.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Dec 11, 2006 - 08:25pm PT
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Didn't there used to be one of those drilled-lost-arrows-as-bolt-hanger deals on N Face of Fairview? I seem to recall one that may have even had some weird spring retainer on it too.
In terms of bolt pulling contraptions, I have a slide hammer originally used for pulling bearings with a custom attachment on the end. I don't think I've used it on any old Rawl split shanks or anything you have to clip to hanger to pull out, but it's been dandy on pulling the cones out of 5 piece bolts and thunderstud type bolts (you know, with the little collar at the bottom).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 11, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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Greg and Clint, the bolt puller design in the works comes in two sizes; a 3/8" thick ss block with 1/2" low pitch threads as the extraction mechanism and a 3/4" block thick ss block with 3/4" low pitch threads.
Located in the center of the rectangular block of each is a tap hole and a welded ss nut. The block can be directly screwed onto a threaded stud before extraction. The small puller is tapped for a 1/4" coarse thread hole. The large block is tapped for a 3/8" coarse thread hole. The design breakthrough on this puller is a 3/8" or 1/2" U-bolt which can be fed through a bolt hanger and tightened down before engaging the drive (extraction) bolts.
I'm waiting on the 3/8" U-bolts for six light duty pullers and have two heavy duties in the works. The other innovation that should keep rock damage to a minimum is a pair of cabled machine nuts to use as adjustable feet at the point of contact with the radiused drivebolts. Field testing alone will determine whether the smaller version be able to extract 5/16' splitshafts without buckling or deforming the block or the drivebolts.
I'd be happy to send you guys a light set to check it out. I can probably spare one of the heavy sets also. This initial run is determined by available scrap size more than anything. I'll post a pic as soon as they're ready. The heavy puller will be ready first. The megablock should be able extract just about anything, including an enormous cone of rock. So we'll have to be really careful about which bolts to pull and which ones to cut and push in.
I am totally stoked about the potential for clean extraction, especially if the block can be threaded directly onto the bolt stud.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 12, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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That sounds nice, Steve. I agree, a way to pull the 5/16" split shaft Rawls would be great. I can think of a few ugly ones on Perfect Vision that would be nice to fix! I pulled a 5/16" from the belay partway up Ankles Away (at Needles), and it pretty much did in my old tuning fork (which was too narrow for it).
In Pinnacles rock (relatively soft volcanic breccia), sometimes people have placed 3/8" splitshaft bolts. We can usually pull them easily by removing the hex nut, putting on a stack of washers, and then tightening the hex nut. In granite this trick will not work so easily, so the gear puller type block could be very nice.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 12, 2006 - 11:23am PT
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In my experience fork pullers can be used with minimal rock scarring as long as you have a selection of forked pitons to work with. A forked standard Knifeblade should be the first one driven in place to minimize compression scarring. Next flip the hanger around and drive the thicker fork puller in the opposite direction so as to counter wedge the KB. The bottom KB acts as a wear shield and shim to keep the more agressive fork from contacting and scraping the rock itself while wedging the bolt out. Some small scraps of sheet steel are also useful to prevent sliding contact. My concern with generalized fork puller use is that everybody will go through the same learning process that I did and that the rock will suffer for it.
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:22pm PT
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Hey guys - I pulled these off of the north face lower slab area on Middle in 2000. I was starting up what I thought was an original line only to find these beauts waiting to be clipped. Both came out in my hand, no questions asked. Thoughts on age??
-sling the boy wonder
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 19, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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Homemade strap hangers were common in the late 50s to mid-60s. The ring angle, and a nicely bent one at that, is probably from the same era since there would've been no point in carrying them once chromoly angles became available.
Is there a star on the head of the bolt? Any possibility you were on The Flakes, 5.8 (1964)?
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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Dec 20, 2006 - 09:17am PT
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Hi Steve! No star on the 'bolt'. It looks like a plain ol' nail to me. The end is tapered just like a nail. No markings on the ring angle either.
I can't be sure what route I was on. My book didn't show anything there, but that part of Middle doesn't have much of a showing in the guide. I was left of center, well right of DNB.
Anyone have a good topo of that wall?
-sling the boy wonder
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 20, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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There are no topos for the routes between the DNB and the North Buttress in Meyers early guide. There are two old routes between the DNB and The North Buttressthere however: 'The Turret,' which is near the top of Middle, and 'Thirsty Spire,' which you get to from the big ledge on the 'North Buttress.' You should be able to tell about where you were by consulting the Meyers guide and a good picture of Middle. How high up were you?
There is also the 'North Face' farther west of the 'North Buttress.'
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sling512
Trad climber
Chicago
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Dec 20, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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Roger, both of these were found on the first two pitches. I bailed after 4 pitches or so, before I got to any other route I could identify in my book. I'll look at my pictures tonight to see about where I was.
-sling the boy wonder
-edit-
Found this image online and boxed about where I was:
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 20, 2006 - 03:36pm PT
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Hi slings, Have you climbed the 'North Buttress' or any of the slab routes on the north face apron? If so do you know where you were relative to those starts?
The boxed area seems to be mostly the left hand side of the north face apron--the area that contains 'Jigsaw' and 'Black Primo' The left edge also includes the start of the 'North Face.' According to Roper's guide the 'North Face' route starts '...near the left-hand margin of the face at the point where the flat north face changes direction slightly to form the north buttress.' Steve's description of the 'flat north face' is what we call the north face apron. This route was first climbed in 1959 by Bob Kamps, Chuck Pratt, and Steve Roper.
Maybe you bagged a pin and bolt from that ascent.
Is Ken around? What do you think?
Roger
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The issue of removing Taperbolts came up concerning Pieces Of Eight on Middle so I thought I would post some specific considerations on bolt removal. Scott and others placed a lot of these back in the day and you have to recognize the design from the marks on the bolt face.
For future reference, 5/16" Taperbolts should be easy to get out since they are essentially a machine bolt with a threaded cone-shaped end and two threaded soft metal half ends. Two turns open, tap in, and the whole show should come out with a little outward pressure and wiggling. Some hooked awls and other tools are crucial to remove the soft metal ends if they become disengaged.
It is crucial to recognize the type and design of the bolts that you are removing before applying outward force of any considerable magnitude! Direct outward pull alone is appropriate to remove contraction bolts that rely on compression to provide all holding power in the direction of removal. Mechanical tightening designs are more complex to remove because the component parts need to be continually loosened and manipulated during extraction to allow the hole to be emptied completely. If you attempt to pull a fully tightened mechanical bolt, you can expect a lot of damage to the hole, your puller and possibly a nasty looking cone blowout!
Unfortunately, I don't have any Taperbolts to show here. I never liked them enough to use them. Any volunteers from the studio audience?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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To remove the lead sleeves from taperbolts (and more commonly, from Star Dryvins), we have found that using a lag screw (of the right diameter) is very helpful.
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