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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 21, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
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Some of you make an extra point to say that your ground up route was done with a hand drill. Why in the hell would you use a hand drill unless you were in a wilderness/national park setting? It's like saying that you sewed your harness by hand... why would you do that?
If it takes an hour to drill a hole vs. 6 minutes, plus the fact that a drill is going to do a better job, then why use a hand drill? Is it better ethically somehow? Does it make your route more pure?
Sure, I think it's more impressive if a route was put up with a hand drill. It means that
1) it was harder to do. Instant impressive points right there.
2) the FA certainly thought harder about where to put the bolts (and whether to put them in at all) since it took him 20 - 40 minutes instead of 12 - 50 seconds of drilling for each hole (who takes 6 minutes with a power drill?)
That having been said, i think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who only ever does climbs that were put in GU with a hand drill.
Personally, I think power drills are overall a slightly bad thing and we'd have less ethical issues if they weren't available. But that's also a convenient opinion for me to have since I'm not willing to shell out $600 for a power drill for the occasional FA I might do.
BTW, what do you mean the power drill is doing a better job? If your bits are sharp, the quality of the hole shouldn't be in question either way, right?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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"And the number of bolts on Lev 29 is just silly. When they rebolted that they should have realized that 6 foot bolt spacing on a vertical wall is overkill, regardless of difficulty."
Heard this from a number of people, and I actually agree with you - I also think that Prince of Darkness is overbolted. Also overkill to have bolts next to bomber small nut placements such as on Sour Mash. But we went to the FAs and asked them and they wanted all the bolts replaced (and note that Jorge Urioste himself replaced the bolt by the 3" cam placement on the crux pitch a few years before we did the rebolting). Removing bolts from someone's FA is the same as adding them - imposing your ethics on their route. And (assuming the bolt ban is ever lifted), you're free to go put up neighboring routes in whatever style you see fit.
Since then, I've replaced some bolts with Jorge, and he gave me permission to use my common sense while doing replacement of his routes. I chopped one of his FA bolts on the last route of his I replaced (Spare Rib, left of Crimson) - since there was bomber modern pro right next to it (wide fingers sized cams, which weren't around when they did the FA). I think he wouldn't mind seeing a bit bigger spacing of the bolts on Levitation, but we'd have to make sure both he and Joanne (who freed that route on TR and led some of the pitches with Lynn Hill & Largo on the FFA) approved of it. You can basically A0 the cruxes - maybe that's something that they want to preserve.
And bomber big bolts or not, on those upper pitches the bolts will loosen up and fall out over time - that rock (starting on the 10d sandy lieback pitch) is super soft. Glue-ins would be the only thing that works for the very long term up there. Those bolts would be truly bomber, and perhaps they can be located a bit further apart. Up to the Uriostes though, not you or me!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 21, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Wes, I'm not advocating repeatedly placing and removing pins on a free climb. What I mean is the occasional well-placed fixed thin pin, left as protection for the route, when you can't place a nut or cam. Even if the pin must be replaced every ten years, the crack will not get beat out unless people are sloppy. At least this way you're still working with the features of the rock, and not forcing the route with bolts. But I agree that there's a good argument for placing a bolt in the same area as the pin. I'm also with you, in that employing clean aid techniques is better than scarring cracks with pins. We seem to differ, however, in our willingness or desire to respect and learn from the efforts of the route's pioneers.
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andanother
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 04:05pm PT
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this is crazy!
FA ethics being discussed on the Supertopo Forum?!?!?!
I never thought I would see the day. Such an interesting topic has never been discussed among climbers before. Kudos to all of you for bringing up all these great points. You're really breaking new ground here, and making many people think about things they have never thought about before.
Whatever happened to the old saying: "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer"?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 21, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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hedge- My point exactly: anytime you place a bolt, you're "forcing" the route. And I for one have never claimed that most overhanging sport routes could be bolted on lead. All I'm saying is leave routes alone that have been free-climbed already without bolts, or with a small number of bolts. There are plenty of bolts to clip already, on routes of all grades. You can also establish routes in any way you want. We need routes like Bachar-Yarian, Southern Belle and New Music as cultural relics and inspirational projects for those who want to experience that kind of climbing. Already a number of my old routes have been retro-bolted out of existence. I really do hope it doesn't happen to any more of them. No one is trying to take away your good new sport routes, and none of us old geezers claims we could climb them, either. Geez...you guys are hard to have a conversation with...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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weschrist
You can't even save your own self, and all while "preaching" how you are going to save others who according to you are "ignorant".
Blah ......
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 21, 2006 - 06:05pm PT
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hedge/wes- you guys are summarily dismissing 100 years of climbing history as "stupid","disingenous" and "egotistical". Oliver Perry-Smith was probably not coming from a place of stupidity, disingenousnes or egotism when he was leading scarcely-protected cracks in Dresden, in the early years of the last century. Nor were Joe Brown and Don Whillans as they led their masterpieces in the 'fifties. And David Breashears' climb of Perilous Journey was motivated by pure desire and executed with supreme skill and self-control. These and other climbs like them are a very important part of the history of climbing. The tradition continues today. If you don't like the climbs, why can't you just leave them alone. As Dingus said, would you like someone to come along and decide to add or remove bolts from your routes? I doubt you would agree to that, but there may indeed be climbers who feel your routes are over or under bolted, and would be justified in making any changes they desire, according to your way of thinking.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 21, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
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wes doesn't even climb routes. he's a boulderer.
he stirs the pot more than i do. hah
;)
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 21, 2006 - 06:56pm PT
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wes, I've figured it out - you're not a real climber - you're a petty government bureaucrat masquerading as a climber.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 21, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
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that's it!
admit nothing Jello!!!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 21, 2006 - 06:59pm PT
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My lips are sealed to this thread, Munge...
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 07:23pm PT
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Wes, the problem with your position is that when lawyers and the public at large begin to perceive climbing as safe and free from risk and potential injury, then just as you seek to blame somebody for inherent and historical risk on climbs, claims of negligence and legal action could arise. We all suffer if that style and history are erased in favor of bolt grids, which you seem to be advocating. Just out of curiosity, since overbolting seems to chafe you in a similar way, how would you propose to regulate the tidal wave of bolts that would pretty up your world?
I think what you need are some MetalVision glasses. This stereoscopic marvel places grids of bolts on the rock no matter where you look, even in the tent at night. They can help make things better. Really. Or maybe you should stick to crack climbing.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Nov 21, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
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weschrist writes:
I never advocated using personal discression to alter an existing route, just common sense.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 07:47pm PT
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I don't quite get that one either.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 07:51pm PT
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weschrist
Quit f'cking around man, if you want to stir the pot with this dumbshit logic and lead people around in circle's then you've just demonstrated poor social interaction and we'll just lose respect for your opinions.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
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Wes, you're the one that brought up the legal crap in the first place. And adding bolts to routes and some routes having too many bolts. What the f#k!
WB's right on when he describes your circular logic. Why can't you get over a few runout routes that you lack the stones to do and focus on climbing the ones you can handle?
I'll take you in a common sense competition any day.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 21, 2006 - 08:18pm PT
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How about condemning this crap to ratcatchers.com? or is it rocktards.com?
Where it belongs.
BTW, I'm all for TI pins as fixed pro, but some damned idiot who can't even do the routes free keeps stealing 'em.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 08:31pm PT
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Then go paint a "Mona Lisa".
No you'll paint some some dumb cartoon and call it a "Mona Lisa".
And some other fool will paint a mustache on it ......
Hehehe Edit: Just see above for the example I was just making.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 21, 2006 - 08:38pm PT
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Good lord, Wes, are you predicting corpses stacked like cordwood at the base of B-Y and even the pitifully underprotected DNB? That's awesome! Just think how many wall rats will be able to join the SAR team due to all the new work! Look out WB, you're going to be a busier man.
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