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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 12, 2016 - 11:43pm PT
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Perhaps the problem is our collective assumption (hallucination) that a pluralistic democratic society is workable?
There are other ways of running things.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 13, 2016 - 02:56am PT
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Wow, sad and bad news in more ways than one.
I have not weighed in on any political or religious threads for ages, several years at least, I think. I hope this post will be the exception for a long time to come.
But outside of the knee-jerk reactions, just how would The Donald prevent such a tragedy?
He couldn't as POTUS or a POS, even if he created a police state.
Think about it.
Do you think he actually welcomed such an event, knowing it would boost his "popularity" and his moronic rhetoric? (EDIT) I would not be at all surprised if he "welcomed" it. Or am I just being cynical?
Be it known, I am no way enthralled with Hillary, at all. Bernie is an old fart looking to make his mark and legacy, and as for all the other former candidates, Republican, Democrat, and others, can't we do better as a nation, to come up with a…
I don't know, actually who would want the job as POTUS, I certainly wouldn't.
I wrote this at the risk of bumping a climbing thread off the first page of the forum. Apologies, I'll try to stick to climbing threads and a way to make a living and start my new company, Health Horizons (that is not a plug, as it is a fight against dementia, and if I can pay the bills, all the better).
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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Jun 13, 2016 - 06:04am PT
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People here have asked "where is the outrage over this incident"
"Outrage" never has and never will prevent senseless killing. This clown was reported to the FBI twice in the year before the shootings yet he was still able to legally purchase an AR-15 assault rifle, a pistol, and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. Unless and until common sense gun laws are put in place, we will all live under the threat of mass shootings.
People here have said "if someone carrying a concealed weapon was there, this may have been prevented"
A. A uniformed Orlando police officer was on the scene at the club as the shooting began. He was trained and armed and he got shot as well.
B. As a combat veteran, I can tell you that some untrained and unprepared citizen with a pistol is no match for the fire power of the civilian version of the M16 (AR15). Armed or not, 99% of the time untrained people are going to run away with the rest of the crowd. It's just human nature.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 13, 2016 - 06:13am PT
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Well said, Adventurer. Maybe we should look at the fact that those weapons are about as easy to purchase as a bunch of carrots by just about anyone of age.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 13, 2016 - 06:24am PT
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Maybe we should. Then after we realize what a folly that is, we could move on to other things?
I mean especially since the war on drugs has been so successful and all.
Let's just say anyone that we think is a terrorist, or might be, or maybe at some point may consider being one - or even they were mean to me in the check out line at the grocery store.... we just restrict their access to weapons and this all get's better right?
And who gets to decide which citizens are allowed to have guns or not again? Oh right. The government. Of course, what could possibly go wrong.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 13, 2016 - 06:33am PT
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In a loud packed nightclub there are plenty of methods the nutcase could have used that would have been FAR more effective.
There were over 400 people in that club. Think of the accidental tragedies that have happened in such situations involving much higher mortality rates.
But yeah we know... more laws will certainly prevent nutcases from doing what nutcases do.
Perhaps making all nightclubs "Gun Free Zones" would help. Then this wouldn't have happened.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 13, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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Armed or not, 99% of the time untrained people are going to run away with the rest of the crowd. It's just human nature.
If you were correct, you wouldn't need to make up statistics.
Trained or untrained, the victims in this case would have had a chance not to be victims if they were armed.
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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Jun 13, 2016 - 07:17am PT
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When a citizen buys a car, the transaction is recorded and the car is registered in the state. License plates are issued which directly tie the car to the owner. Traffic laws are in place to regulate speed and right of way at intersections. Laws govern driver qualifications, age, eyesight requirements, and driving skill prior to the issuance of a drivers license.
Of course, it is obvious that none of this absolutely prevents all speeding, reckless driving, accidents, and vehicular crimes.
BUT, JUST ASK YOURSELF WHAT OUR ROADS WOULD BE LIKE IF NO SUCH REGULATIONS EXISTED AND DRIVING WAS A FREE FOR ALL!
Common sense gun laws will never prevent all crime but laws that require the sale of guns, either by dealerships or individuals, to undergo some basic scrutiny will most certainly make a considerable difference.
Some people put forth the age old argument that the founding fathers wrote the US Constitution to guarantee the right of the people to bear arms.
1. The Constitution does not prevent that "right" from being regulated in some sensible manner. After all, the same Constitution guarantees our "freedom" but that freedom is sensibly regulated. You can't walk down the street naked, you can't "disturb the peace", etc etc
2. People who rely on the Constitution argument apparently have no respect for those founding fathers. When the Constitution was written, guns were single shot muzzleloaders that took more than ten seconds to reload. The founding fathers had no way of imagining the firepower of 21st century weapons. If they could have seen the future, do we really believe they would have ignored it.
All that said, if people still want to make take the Constitution literally then I guess that means we all have the absolute right to have a single shot muzzleloader.
No problem there. That way when some moron pulls it out in a crowd, he won't get off more than one shot!!!
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kattz
climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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His father's posing in military uniform saluting, with Afghanistan flag...runs political activity in Afghanistan, campaigns...breaks US law by all means, violating allegiance to the US (I'm going to bet he's a naturalized citizen)...and still not given a return ticket to his favorite place??
What the hell they've been coddling with this, based on idiotic PC?
Now the father openly says to the media that god will punish gays and such is the issue humans shouldn't deal with, by the way, he's certainly not worried about drawing attention to himself.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 13, 2016 - 07:44am PT
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This guy did undergo all of the many faceted "background checks" and other nonsense.
In fact he was a licensed security guard at the nation's largest private security firm.
You can't legislate crazy people. Legislation for cars in your example works because most people agree to follow those rules in joint cooperation with each other. They form a framework of rules with the intent of everyone getting to work or home alive.
No laws prevent crazy people from driving through crowds of toddlers if they were so inclined.
We have firearm laws, thousands of them already.
To re-iterate... you have three choices when faced with murderous violence. 1)Die 2)Run 3)Kill them first.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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yes,
progress...
I'll say the words, "radical Islamism" -hrc
Another step in emasculating Trump.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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Kill all Muzzies!! Right Blue?
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:16am PT
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yes,
progress...
HA!
more like Donald looks real good now!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:23am PT
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I work daily with many people who I consider personal friends who are also Muslims from various ME countries.
And every one of them is saddened by what happened but more scared of what people's reactions might be and how events like this get used to push every imaginable political agenda.
Instead of focusing on what made THIS individual do what he did and try and see if there are any others involved it'll just become another political platform for failed politicians, soaked in blood and emotion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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"focusing on what made THIS individual do what he did and try and see if there are any others involved"
You don't think there's plenty of this underway already?
....
It's the Islamic dogma that needs to be challenged, not the people. This is the nuance that needs to be negotiated.
Example:
Others: (1) Death for apostasy (2) Gender equality (3) Evolution (Science)
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:36am PT
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TO Mr. Obama:
"Knock Knock. Who's there? It's NOT the gun. It's NOT the gun, who? Wake up, It's not the GUN dummy... It's YOUR JV Team!!!
France, specifically Paris, is a GUN FREE PROHIBITED ZONE where any type of GUN ownership by civilians is prohibited and against French law.
Hmmmm... that DID NOT stop this Ideological brutal ISIS attack where lots of "HIGH POWERED/AUTOMATIC RIFLES" were specifically used to carry out this slaughter.
Does it really need to get any simpler?
Oh, I know, maybe if they start car bombing and using suicide bombers (just like they are doing in Baghdad at this very moment) where far more innocent Americans will be indiscriminately massacred, maybe that will ring the bell and open eyes.
Unfkingbelieveable
Rick
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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Last I checked, Christian "dogma" finds the same behavior objectionable and also sentences such individuals to an eternity in Hellfire.
Also we must not forget the other 2+ billion Muslims yesterday did not commit random acts of mass murder.
Belief in various books of fables deemed popular enough to be considered "religions" are not the problem. The vast majority of the time those people are peaceful and non-violent even if they consider the actions of others to be objectionable.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:51am PT
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"Belief in various books of fables deemed popular enough to be considered "religions" are not the problem."
You really have no idea what it is to be a fundamentalist Abrahamic supernaturalist (whether C or M) do you? who takes all those "fables" seriously as reality, as truth.
I guess on one level you can count yourself wise and/or lucky then.
The vast majority of the time those people are peaceful and non-violent
Thank goodness.
The vast majority of time the weather over Oklahoma is mild to moderate. Still it is beneficial to understand the nature of tornadoes. There is an analogy here.
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John M
climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 08:55am PT
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well,, thank goodness you defend my right to be. we wouldn't want to start thinking that you are a radical extremist.
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