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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 29, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
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So who's going to be the first to say that sex with a narcissist was awesome and led you to stay too long at the party ?
Been there. Done that. Yes, awesome. Until it wasn't.
I'm not trying to make light of this conversation. It was a real train wreck.
On another note, my birth father left a swath of messes in his trail. One time he told me, in the most well meaning and sincere tone, "never have kids, they'll ruin your life." That's the way it was with him. Seemingly loving but cutting you off at the knees every chance he could get. Reading this thread has got me to thinking about that in a new light.
I was always, and remain today, in awe of his musicianship. I think he would have had a great career, but he sabotaged himself by harboring an inner resentment of those more successful the he. I think he felt entitled, a word which has come up here more than once.
I say "birth father" because my stepdad, who some of my friends here know about or have met is NOT to be confused with him.
It's not every day there's a conversation on this forum which helps to enlighten me on such things.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 29, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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10 Professions That Attract the Most Sociopaths
By Roy Klabin May 26, 2013
Our notions of good and evil are as malleable and evolving as the society around us. Whereas once we used to burn opinionated women as witches, or assume seizures were a sure sign of demonic possessions — we now rely on scientific inquiry and skepticism to define the world around us. This has led to a wide array of psychological categories, groups and behaviors through which we self-identify: Introvert, type A, depressed, delusional, egotistical or sociopath!
There are still ongoing disputes in field of psychiatry, and the inner workings of the mind remain a great scientific mystery yet to be fully explored. However, when it comes to sociopathy, we seem to have a somewhat functioning definition: a lack of empathy, emotions, or ability to identify with others coupled with a superficial charm, persuasiveness, focus, and egomania.
It might surprise some to learn, however, that the vast majority of sociopaths aren't killers lurking in the shadows. Most of them are walking around among us, immersed in careers that nurture their psychological traits, and in some cases even reward them.
Here are the top ten jobs that attract sociopaths, according to author Kevin Dutton:
1. CEO
With the heartless greed and sadistic ambition displayed on Wall street since the 2008 financial collapse, it may come as no surprise that the first place on the list goes to the modern-age equivalent of a pharaoh. Capitalist positions of leadership offer power, autonomy, command, and status — a perfect battlefield for the ambitious and ruthless to compete. Where once pyramids littered the dessert in tribute to vain kings, we now have skyscrapers and corporate logos filling the clouds above.
more
http://mic.com/articles/44423/10-professions-that-attract-the-most-sociopaths#.fpx207lFJ
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jan 29, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
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That list has been around for a long time. As humor it's pretty good. As reality not so much except perhaps for #10.
The first time I saw it was from my wife who is, yes, a lawyer. She got a kick out of it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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10 Professions That Attract the Most Sociopaths
Totally great article. I have been saying the same thing as the article for 15 years.
Cluster B types have a weak ego structure, and they heavily rely on external cues for their self worth, e.g., "I am a surgeon" (ergo, I must be a really great person and a success, which makes my ego feel good).
You can always tell highly-functioning, highly-successful borderline types when you meet, because they're all narcissistic as#@&%es.
Challenge someone who has a solid ego, and nothing happens except a discussion. Challenge a borderline type (who has a weak ego) and you'll suddenly find yourself facing a raging maniac. Like you've cornered a wild animal.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Where is your background on this, SLR? Professional, or?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Professional, but none of this is intended to be professional advice, just philosophical discussions.
And I'm also a victim of cluster B type.
"I'm a survivor." :)
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Gotcha. Your view is pretty spot-on, from all that I've learned about this psychopathy.
I'm in 'survival' mode right now, myself.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Interesting article, Craig. I, too, would have put lawyers on that list, even though I like most of the lawyers I know. Still, lawyers remain an example of the law of comparative advantage that I teach as an economist (as opposed to as a lawyer).
Being a jerk is a disadvantage in virtually every profession, but it is less of a disadvantage as a lawyer than as, say, a therapist. Thus, the advantage of being a lawyer who is not a jerk is less than that of being a therapist who is not a jerk.
I suspect that lawyers form a fruitful source of business for many professions: for physicians, because we don't take good care of ourselves, for psychologists because we usually have personality disorders, for accountants because we pay enough taxes and make enough stupid financial decisions to make the employment of an accountant worthwhile, and clergy, because we know we're selling our souls and have sellers' remorse.
I also chuckled at seeing surgeons on this list. My best friend (other than my wife) is a radiologist, and he likes to joke that the best way to stump a surgeon is to ask him or her the identity of the three best surgeons in the world. They'll never be able to figure out the names of the other two.
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Therapists Confirm Trump's Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Concerned therapists break silence to warn the public
Posted Nov 13, 2015
“Remarkably narcissistic,” said developmental psychologist Howard Gardner, a professor at Harvard Graduate School of Education.
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“He’s so classic that I’m archiving video clips of him to use in workshops because there’s no better example of his characteristics,” said clinical psychologist George Simon, who conducts lectures and seminars on manipulative behavior. “Otherwise, I would have had to hire actors and write vignettes. He’s like a dream come true.”
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“He’s very easy to diagnose,” said psychotherapist Charlotte Prozan. “In the first debate, he talked over people and was domineering. He’ll do anything to demean others, like tell Carly Fiorina he doesn’t like her looks. ‘You’re fired!’ would certainly come under lack of empathy. And he wants to deport immigrants, but [two of] his wives have been immigrants.
“There is help available, but it doesn’t look like the help people are used to. It’s not insight-oriented psychotherapy, because narcissists already have insight. They’re aware; the problem is, they don’t care. They know how you’d like them to act; the problem is, they’ve got a different set of rules."
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Licensed clinical social worker Wendy Terrie Behary, the author of Disarming the Narcissist: Surviving and Thriving with the Self-Absorbed, said, “Narcissists are not necessarily liars, but they are notoriously uncomfortable with the truth." (The article notes that Trump positions himself as a possible savior to the economy despite the fact that four of his companies have declared bankruptcy.)
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“Textbook narcissistic personality disorder,” echoed clinical psychologist Ben Michaelis. “This man is known for his golf courses, but, with due respect, who does he think works on these golf courses? Mr. Trump’s bullying nature—taunting Senator John McCain for being captured in Vietnam, or saying Jeb Bush has “low energy”—is in keeping with the narcissistic profile.
"Regardless of how you feel about John McCain, the man served—and suffered. To degrade people is really part of a cluster-B personality disorder: it’s antisocial and shows a lack of remorse for other people. The way to make it O.K. to attack someone verbally, psychologically, or physically is to lower them. That’s what he’s doing.
“He’s applying for the greatest job in the land, the greatest task of which is to serve, but there’s nothing about the man that is service-oriented. He’s only serving himself.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201511/therapists-confirm-trumps-narcissistic-personality-disorder
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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I knew this NPD that was a walking talking resume with limited experience in the field he was supposedly an expert in.. He was the NPD poster child , pathological liar , attention whore, with an entitlement complex... anybody who would fall for the charade would usually end up with a knife in the back as soon as he got what he wanted...He knew everyone including the ficticious person i invented to test him for know it all syndrome...If he had any inkling that you doubted his abilities or were not buying into who he thought he was , he would explode and go into bully mode...
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dirtbag
climber
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Pharmabro: narcissist.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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The world owes him a living and he's entitled to the huge mark ups..
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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It's one thing to markup boob implants, booze, or limp-dick meds. It's another to kill people for money. But to that guy, he doesn't see the difference because there is none. He's the same as any most any modern CEO, just less polished and more of a dick.
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dirtbag
climber
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That guy is seriously overdue for an ass kicking.
I mean, just look at him, he wreaks of douchiness.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Add some more polish, teach him to hide the smirk and disdain and he'd be a good president.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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JEleazarian: Being a jerk is a disadvantage in virtually every profession, . . . .
Not exactly.
What’s a jerk? Are we all in agreement on that and on what matters at the end of the day?
Want to get something done? Want to get people to change? Want to create or form an organization that is needed to do really big things (send people to Mars, cure cancer, fight wars, etc.)?
The fact of the matter is, it seems, is that “jerks” make the world go round to any significant extent. They initiate “good things” and “bad things.” You can’t get one set without the other, it seems. They come as a pair. No amazing or great creation or achievement came with and from only “good behaviors.”
Of course we don’t much like any of these things. But that’s only because most of us live in a Pollyanna world where we expect or hope for an idealistic world of only good people doing only good things.
I suggest doing some reading here. I suggest two books by Jeffrey Pfeffer: (i) “Power” and (ii) “Leadership BS.” He’s one of the smartest and most honest guys I know in academia in my fields.
Wanna get something important done?
From: http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers/dp/0062383167/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454652217&sr=1-1&keywords=jeffrey+pfeffer
In Leadership BS, Jeffrey Pfeffer pulls back the curtain, showing how leadership really works and why so many leadership development efforts fail. In this forthright and persuasive critique, Pfeffer argues that much of the oft-repeated wisdom about leadership is based more on hope than reality, on wishes rather than data, on beliefs instead of science. In an age when transparency is considered a virtue, Pfeffer makes the case that strategic misrepresentation isn't as harmful as you think, that breached agreements are a part of business, that immodesty is frequently a path to success, and that relying on the magnanimity of your boss is a bad bet.
Sorry. Get friendly with Buddhist realism about the world.
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John M
climber
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Interesting thread. I agree to some extent that we bring these people into our lives because there is something we need to see in ourselves, but I also understand that these kinds of people play on our good intentions.
The fact of the matter is, it seems, is that “jerks” make the world go round to any significant extent. They initiate “good things” and “bad things.” You can’t get one set without the other, it seems. They come as a pair. No amazing or great creation or achievement came with and from only “good behaviors.”
I fully and completely disagree with this statement. I know plenty of strong leaders who were able to get things done without being a jerk. The only people who thought they were jerks were lazy people. But that doesn't automatically mean that they were jerks. That says more about the lazy person then the strong leader. I also have plenty of experience with jerks in power. I helped get one power freak of a jerk fired even though she was my boss. Are you a jerk if you fire someone for not doing their job?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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My grandfather was a state senator in Wisconsin for 27 years.
When I was a little kid, I remember being with him in his office one afternoon, and observed him calling person after person in the Senate saying the same thing. “Hey, John, you know I just heard X. Is that true? What do you know about it?” After those calls, it occurred to me to ask if he had really heard that. (He kept winking at me when he was making the calls.) He said, “No, but it’s a way to start a conversation.”
When I got back from Vietnam in 1969, I said something had to be done about the war. It was wrong. I railed about it. He said, “yes, yes, yes . . . but do you know what’s going on with our prisons? That’s something that’s going to be big, and we need to act now.”
A few years later, my grandfather (“dzadza”) died after Parkinson’s disease. As we are Polish on that side of the family (Kendziorski is not much of an anglo name), after the funeral, we all ended up at his local corner tavern (the south side of Milwaukee had at least one on every corner it seemed). Sitting at the bar was me, my mother, and my grandmother, along with others to our left and right. We were throwing back boilermakers, and getting hammered. It was like a wake. For a couple of hours, people came to pay their respects to my grandmother (my “Baci” in Polish) and drink as is the custom. Every person said the same thing to my grandmother: “Oh, Netti, Casey was a wonderful man.” Blah blah blah. At one point in the procession, my Baci retorted, “Yeah, and he could be a real sonofabitch, too.” The entire bar broke into boisterous laughter because it was true.
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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I have been thinking about some of the negative personality types that I have encountered on various forums over the past 20 years or so. They have changed a lot over those years. There used to be simple trolls who were just feeding their rat by pushing buttons and offending people. Most forum users have learned to ignore that behavior and in response I think the same people may have learned new ways to feed. I didn't see that anybody had posted the link below but I found it interesting and relevant to some of the posters we see here on the taco today. Some people are merely annoyingly stupid but others are truly manipulative. Whatever, annoying people on the internet are best ignored.
It seems that narcissism is easy for people to recognize in others but impossible to recognize in themselves – much like ignorance is.
Anyway, I found this food for thought. If you read far enough along, there is a list of 21 traits.
http://n-continuum.blogspot.com/2014/01/21-signs-of-online-destructive.html
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