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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:06am PT
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I take that as compliment.... Danka
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Sep 11, 2015 - 06:06am PT
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"The no holds language and screaming in your face etc can get rather brutal."
Having spent a little time at Parris Island I had to lol at this. Must be awful!
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jonnyrig
climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 06:19am PT
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I wonder if they ever conducted such a similar study on straight vs gay?
Black vs white?
Seems inherently flawed due to the caveat listed at the end of the article.
In any case, for whatever job duty you want someone to perform in the military, it's my personal OPINION that they should all meet the same physical/mental requirements. It's not a place for EEO. Make the cut, or do something else. And if you make the cut, feel free to put your life on the line for your country regardless of age/race/sex/orientation/etc.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 06:39am PT
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Having spent a little time at Parris Island I had to lol at this. Must be awful!
Whether that is meant to be sarcastic or not, fact is when this type of psychological and emotional training is implemented at just the correct moment, as you know Caveman, when one is at their lowest point in motivation and inner fortitude, it indeed can be a very effective tool to determine whether or not that individual can dig deep and pull out the inner emotional strength that is needed to continue on. Or, Quit!
In a real world situ, that type training goes that much more further than pretty much anything else in the arsenal of all that was thrown at you during the course. One can not "Quit" on their Team Mates when out on an Op. Regardless how fked up the situ maybe. And them situ's can get more brutal and vile than one ever experienced in the confined training environments back on the sunny beaches of San Diego etc.
Read M Luttrell's "Lone Survivor" and the story of "Op Red Wings", the worst day in Specwar Operational history, to see just how bad things can get real fast out in the real world of war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Luttrell
http://marcusluttrell.com/neverforget/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Wings
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 11, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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Women should only be allowed to hold Command Positions-Commander in Chief for example...
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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The Chief wrote:
War has NO rules. Sees no color or gender or .... political correctness.
If that’s the case, then why ban on women in combat and special operations if war doesn’t care? Why not just let the best people rise to the type regardless of gender? Special forces units are made up of all shapes and sizes.
In the end all that has ever been asked for is equal opportunity under the law. Same pay for same work, same chances as everyone else, to evaluate every individual on their merits. The two ladies who made it through ranger training received no special treatment, succeeding on their own individual strengths. From what I know of speaking with people involved in the feminist movement from 30 years ago through today, the essence has never been “men and women are the same,” it has always been “equal opportunity for the individual regardless of gender” and “equal treatment for the individual regardless of gender”.
That certain professions appeal to or lend themselves more to men or women, that’s one thing, but to actively exclude, is something totally different.
And who really gives a sh#t about strength? I’ve read enough first-hand accounts from SEALs, Vietnam Vets, and seen the entire BUD/S documentary you posted to know that physical size and pure muscle power is not what makes the difference. As I wrote, all shapes and sizes.
You and Warbler keep trying to shoot down an argument that no one is making or has ever made.
Who cares what the averages say when it comes to the individual and a given job position, athletic endeavor, or outdoor adventure. So what if men are stronger on average due to genetics, Lynn Hill was still the first person ever to free the Nose.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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The Warbler wrote:
Maybe if women take enough testosterone, they can lose the period and make the cut.
Wow, even after all the bullshit on the NY Times thread I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you really are just a dick.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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Women should only be allowed to hold Command Positions-Commander in Chief for example...
I totally agree. Just as the School Principal that played an almost zero part in your daily life while going to school, except for when you got a Gold Star or the Student of the Year Award, the CnC is a totally moot entity in the daily ongoing's here.
Degaine:
Who ever said anything about "banning" any one? To be clear, I am 100% in favor of allowing them to give it a shot.
But PHYSIOLOGICAL issues need to be studied prior to allowing females to partake without "dumbing down" the critical training protocols that are currently in place in some of the more difficult and advanced SPECWAR Qualification Training Courses.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Well, I'm sure that the state of mind engendered in many on a monthly basis could be a real
advantage to becoming a cold-blooded killer. The Ex was turned down as a hit woman by
Vinny and Louie cause she was too scary.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:17am PT
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you all might read the actual summary of the report released by the Marine Corps...
this was the link off of the NPR web page:
http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2394531-marine-corps-force-integration-plan-summary.html
the integrated units did better than the all male units in 2 out of 134 "events", but the nature of those events are not mentioned...
and one presumes that they did as well or better on 30% of all the events.
An important missing element is how the soldiers were selected, 400 men and 100 women; presumably "volunteers" which diminishes the statistical inferences of the study.
Injuries are an indication of lack of physical conditioning, and the role of physical training is obviously important, but it is not indicated whether or not the Marine Corps has a physical training regime optimized for women which might be different from one optimized for men... my guess would be that they have a "one size fits all" physical training program, which is optimized for men. One wonders how much performance increase would happen with an optimized training program.
Finally, while "rapidity of action" is cited as a primary indicator of "combat power," it would be interesting to see how women do when the exercises are extended and prolonged, women endurance is often on par and/or superior to male endurance performance. One reason that extending engagements may not be a current tactic could be that men soldiers are poorly suited to execute these sorts of tactics.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:43am PT
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Injuries are an indication of lack of physical conditioning, and the role of physical training is obviously important, but it is not indicated whether or not the Marine Corps has a physical training regime optimized for women which might be different from one optimized for men... my guess would be that they have a "one size fits all" physical training program, which is optimized for men. One wonders how much performance increase would happen with an optimized training program.
Obviously you Mr.H are completely naive to the level of "physical conditioning" and preparedness that ALL Marines must adhere to. Regardless of their MOS/Specialty. ALL Marines are considered equal and their primary job is to effectively perform the combant duties as any other. That includes Female Marines.
Thus your point in that mark is off.
PS: MR.H, have you ever been a part of a combat unit and performed such in a real world situ?
Curious.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:44am PT
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"Combat Effectiveness
Overall: All-male squads, teams and crews demonstrated higher performance levels on 69%
of tasks evaluated (93 of 134) as compared to gender-integrated squads, teams and crews.
Gender-integrated teams performed better than their all-male counterparts on (2) events."
93/134 = 0.694
let's say 70%
134-93 = 41
41/134 = 0.305
let's say 30%
formal rounding rules would actually have this 69% to 31%...
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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So Mr. H, you are good at numbers and that is your PHD specialty.
Unfortunately, them numbers you throw out are complete speculation, at best.
Now, had you ever been a part of any of those training evolution's which this "study" was based on, you would certainly understand the levels of effective TEAM TACTICS and PRECISION that is a vital part of and comes with the strict adherence to unit protocols that ALL Marines must abide by.
BTW MR.H, do you have a clue as to what each one of them final "performance" evaluation numbers entails? This btw is NOT a static lab environment by any means.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:54am PT
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my point, The Chief, is that the physical training regimes were developed for male soldiers...
it is not at all clear that this same training regime is as effective for female soldiers. It is a pertinent point when the physical training is developing elite athletes. Certainly there are no studies on that from the Marine Corps.
Further, the Marine Corps asked for volunteers, but it could have actually selected a set of soldiers based on their performance on a set of physical tests and then compared the action of the all male to integrated combat teams.
The conclusions of this current study can only be correctly phrased that the set of all male volunteer units out performed the set of male and female volunteers. It is erroneous to conclude that all Marines are equal, and not only that, that the Marines who would volunteer are equal.
While the comparison of the abilities of volunteers may be important for Marine operations, it is not legitimate to generalize the conclusion to include gender.
It would not be at all surprising if a set of equally accomplished male and female soldiers performed equally well, whether , all male, all female or integrated units. Since the Marines (and other combat units) are "elite," the selection criteria are an important consideration.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 11, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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Patrolling the beach for sharks
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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as per Israel....
Around the world there has been some discussion about whether or not women should serve in active front-line combat. In Israel it is clear that despite the vast contribution of women in the military, active combat is not an option. This decision is based on the physical and biological differences between men and women but also for moral reasons. As Michal, a combat fitness instructor in the IDF, says, "No one wants to even think of the possibility of an Israeli girl falling into the hands of the enemy." Our history is already filled with too many such stories of atrocities.
The Israeli military has always combined the practically of combat with the morality of our Jewish way of life.
For political reasons women's groups have tried to break down barriers but the simple fact is that physically women are not capable of doing the job men do. There was an attempt to integrate women in the Search and Rescue units but it was discovered that a great deal of physical damage was caused to them as a result of the increased effort. Even the girls who were integrated into the anti-aircraft unit suffered great physical damage during the long hikes. They suffered more than 30% more stress factors than the boys.
Women serve in many capacities in the IDF such as intelligence, the Border Police, maintenance, supplies, secretarial duties, as well as serving in a variety of technical and administrative support roles. Over the course of the years, the number of military occupational specialties open to women in the IDF has expanded and today most jobs are open to women. Women are limited by nothing but their own ability.
Women have long served in technological positions, intelligence, operations and training. Likewise, women can be found servicing IDF computerized systems, working as computer programmers, smart weapons systems operators and electronics technicians. There is also a women' soldiers-teachers unit, which teaches new immigrants and children in developing regions.
The bottom line is that in the Israeli Defense Forces, each soldier, male or female, will be assigned to the task where their contribution will be the greatest. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, the nation is more important then the preferences of any individual soldier. I have found that most soldiers are happy knowing that they are contributing their maximum. There is always an attempt to satisfy the ambitions and interests of each soldier but ultimately the needs of the army take precedence.
taken from:
http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/women-in-idf.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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Warbler, maybe your fuzzy reading skills are getting in the way...
let's break it down since it seems to be a "word problem" and maybe those gave you trouble back in junior high...
All-male squads, teams and crews demonstrated higher performance levels on 69%
of tasks evaluated (93 of 134) as compared to gender-integrated squads, teams and crews.
so there were 134 "events"
on 93 of those the male teams "demonstrated higher performance levels" than the integrated teams.
That means the integrated teams "demonstrated lesser performance levels"
Gender-integrated teams performed better than their all-male counterparts on (2) events.
on 2 of those "events" integrated teams "demonstrated higher performance levels" (e.g. were better than) the male teams who "demonstrated lesser performance levels"
that leaves 134-93-2 = 39 events where the teams did not demonstrate either higher or lesser performance levels.
If something is neither higher or lesser the usual interpretation is that they were equal, and since there were 39 such events, this interpretation is stronger (since we are consider a set which is not null).
So my conclusion seems to be at least reasonable.
Now we can await the release of the full report to answer the details of the other questions.
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overwatch
climber
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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I believe you were also saying that a physical training program designed to elicit top performance from men may not be ideal or most effective for women?
Why yes, Overwatch that may very well be.
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