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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 19, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Thanks cosmic. This is about to become my life. my escape from my day job sitting at a computer 5 days a week. Ultimately I want get the hell out of this country and head to Costa Rica to use this technology to monitor coastal waters. Protect sharks and whales, etc.
I could be a little off on the air space so any real pilots please correct. We have to follow the same rules as pilots except we cannot go above 400 feet and they cannot go below it (when possible). That might be a bit simplified but it's what keeps us all from getting buzzed by planes for no reason.
Here's a small snippet of an air space map. Every UAV operator that is operating commercially should know it. I don't expect the kid with the toy flying over Will and his shot gun to, however :).
basically air space is defined by a series of upside down wedding cake layers.
the thick blue line is DIA air space. But as you can see it's way beyond the five mile rule as that's Boulder in the yellow on the left. What's going on is DIA controls their class C between 10000 and 12000 feet above ground level. so planes landing at smaller air ports simply need to come in under 10K. Boulder Airport doesn't even have defined air space which can be seen by the G in the diamond. I live less than a mile from it but I can fly w/o notification. Though if I got close I'd give the air port manager a call and let him know of any ops I might be engaged in.
and Guernica is right. These things are a fricking hoot to fly. Rarely do I meet anyone that isn't very interested and curious. Most people think it's cool stuff.
But truth be told if I try to never fly around people but I won't always be able to do that.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 19, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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I don't think drones are going away. How else are you gonna get your Amazon package delivered overnight?
What are the current regulations? More importantly what new legislation is coming down (or up) the pike?
It's interesting to note that it is illegal to fly a kite on Coronado Beach, presumably because of it's proximtity to North Island Naval Air Station.
Can one kite surf at Coronado?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 19, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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You can group operators into 3 basic groups.
The first is the old timers that have been flying for years and are members of the AMA, etc.
The second is those of us flying commercially.
The third is group that got a phantom for christmas and doesn't have clue what ethical flying is or what rules might be in place.
That's a bit general but will serve my point. You won't see the first group doing anything stupid. They are educated, fly ethically (they wrote those rules) and insured. They usually fly in their AMA parks.
The second group might push it a bit more but the same thing is going on. We fly ethically, are educated, and generally follow the rules. It's paramount to your livelihood.
The third group is the anything can happen group. Most people do the right thing. But as we've seen many do not and do stupid sh#t.
My point is this - the rules/laws/regs that we're either going to see put in place or changed are going to apply differently to these groups. Nothing will change for group one. Group two we await final regs and though many of the rules are slightly prohibitive we're ok with that. If we need we can apply for a COA to operate outside of the rules. Generally though the proposed rules are favorable to commercial ops and $18B in economy influx in the next four years.
No idea what the FAA is going to do with the last group. Arm a team of monkeys with baseball bats and start beating heads would be a start.
zBrown I posted this after I read your post but I think it might give you some insight. And the reason why "drone" use is not on that sign is because it's already illegal to fly due to the Class D airspace. I'm sure it happens all the time though.
If you want insight into what the FAA is proposing for commercial ops the NPRM lays it out:
http://www.faa.gov/uas/nprm/
Anders for the win
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Jul 19, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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Nature -
Class F is an ICAO airspace class and isn't used in the US. Class G extends to either 700 or 1200 feet depending on what it's bounded by. Class A is above 18000 feet MSL. B and C are controlled airspace surrounding major airports as you said. Class D is a 5 statue mile radius around towered airports, civilian or military. Class E is essentially the same as G, but has higher weather minimums to fly in legally. If the weather is lower than those minimums an ATC clearance is required, otherwise not.
The short version :)
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 19, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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Braunini - thanks. I must have been looking at an older chart. I'm just learning this stuff but am dug in pretty deep with the ground stuff. Pretty complicated so not all of it has stuck. I should have gone into the modules I did and pulled it out of there. Would have been a better refresher than pulling it out of something totally incorrect. Or maybe I just used a chart for another country :)
confirming everything you said. sorta. It's becoming fun stuffing my head full of new information. Though I'm knot going to learn how to read weather.
oh well maybe i'll rework it tomorrow.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 19, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
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Can one kite surf at Coronado?
Interesting sign, it is a matter of interpretation as to whether or not kite flying is actually illegal.
The code section cited is actually California Public Utility Code Section 21646 (CPVC is Chlorinated polyvinyl chloride, typically plumbing pipe)
If you read the code it only prohibits objects being flown within five miles IF it might be ingested or obstruct a pilots view. A kite on the beach might not be prohibited under the state code. There could be Federal law that would apply.
21646. It shall be a misdemeanor for any person to release or fly
or cause to be released or flown, within five miles of any airport,
any moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or unmanned free balloon
which might be ingested by an aircraft engine or might cause a pilot'
s view of the airport and zone approach to be obstructed, or which
could be used to suspend an object capable of endangering airborne
aircraft or impairing a pilot's vision.
Drones are not addressed
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 19, 2015 - 08:34pm PT
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zBrown writes:
"It's interesting to note that it is illegal to fly a kite on Coronado Beach, presumably because of it's proximtity to North Island Naval Air Station."
Mr Beck writes:
"If you read the code it only prohibits objects being flown within five miles IF it might be ingested or obstruct a pilots view. A kite on the beach might not be prohibited under the state code."
The whole San Diego area is more or less off-limits to my kites. Damn few places in San Diego are over five miles from an airport, because there are just so damn many of them.
There's a bunch of stuff in San Diego I'd like to get kite-aerial pics of; USS Midway, Star Of India ( tall ship ), Old Point Loma Lighthouse, etc. But there's an airfield or something within a mile or two of all those places. I can fudge on the five-mile-limit and be OK if it's three or four miles from an airport, but two miles is a little close. Especially when my kite is at least 100' up before I even attach the camera.
ElCap... quotes:
"it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment without first obtaining permission..."
I'm in trouble if The Man ever sees my photostream.
( Port Townsend, WA. NOT San Diego )
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jul 19, 2015 - 08:44pm PT
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"How much air space do you own above your house? You don't own to space."
Yes you do. From the surface you own down to the center of the earth, and upwards to the edge of the universe.
At 500' above your tallest structure is the beginning of a public aviation easement. You still own that airspace, but it is subject to that public easement.
Since drones cannot operate above 500', a drone cannot overfly your property legally without your permission.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jul 19, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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Gary, I was told the same thing when I purchased this place.
It might depend on where you live, maybe?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jul 20, 2015 - 06:59am PT
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Chaz:
Silver Strand
Torrey Pines Glider Port
Mt. Soledad
Mt. Laguna
Mt. Palomar
Lake Morena
Otay Lakes
Iron Mountain
Actually a pretty good chunk of the east County
I think your photos at the border were pretty close to Ream Field, but I won't tell. Ream used to be known as the helicopter capital of the world (1960's),
I know it's not the same but you can get the Midway and Star of India from the tops of higher buildings down town.
The Lighthouse is a tricky one.
Note: One of the longer gliding flights on record is a round trip from Torrey Pines to Mt. Soledad and back.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 20, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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Squishy could you tell us more about the drone revolution? I would like to hear more about how the US is lagging behind in this area.
I get your argument. Its the people not the tool. Unfortunately, too many people cant use this tool responsibly.
I am willing to sacrifice the enjoyment and use by the responsible to ensure that those who are not responsible do not impair others privacy, interrupt their wilderness experience, and get in the way of EMS responders.
Why should the general public be allowed to fly those things wherever and whenever under 400 feet? Why shouldn't you have to demonstrate competence and get licensed? Do car rules/regs prevent all injuries? No. But they prevent some (an amount that is not measurable).
Your comment about designated spaces for drone use like skate parks was rational. I like that you compared your user group to skateboarders. Two different activities that the general public does not care for in their personal space, and the members of that group insists no harm what-so-ever results from the activity. Spot on.
Now gtf out of the shopping center staircase and get back to the skatepark with your skateboard...err drone
EDIT: you commented that my image and likeness is already on tons of video that I do not want it on. true. So because local and federal entities install cameras all over the public space, you and your group have the right to fly a mobile fleet of security cameras for your own personal use?
you sound like an entitled little kid. it doesnt really matter if you guys like drones and some of the time are operating within the law. Most of us don't. It is called courtesy in principal, and in the case of you as#@&%es getting in the way of ems responders, it is called dangerous. But hey, its fun for you, so keep on!!
EDIT 2:
No one is saying drones dont have a use. Using them for a variety of professional, scientific, and business endeavors is useful. No one is advocating for their professional use to stop. Most of us want the hobbyist that make up the vast majority of the flyers to stop flying like voyeuristic pervs, and have enforcement and penalties be enough to deter.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 20, 2015 - 07:56am PT
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Chaz - the CPUC code is not a blanket ban on flying within 5 miles of an airport. It is a ban that is in effect only if your specific activity presents an ingestion or visual hazard. Flying a kite 100 feet off the deck 2 miles from an airport would never be a hazard, so the ban would not apply. The standard traffic pattern is 1000 feet above ground level, and patterns rarely extend more than a half mile from the runway.
edit - I just checked and there is Federal regulations about kite flying near airports, it is Title 14 of the CFR, section 101. It allows kite operation in a restricted area under 150 feet by merely giving notice to the FAA 24 hours in advance. Federal law takes precedent over state law.
§101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate a moored balloon or kite—
(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than three miles; or
(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to the operation of a balloon or kite below the top of any structure and within 250 feet of it, if that shielded operation does not obscure any lighting on the structure.
return arrow Back to Top
§101.15 Notice requirements.
No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150 feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:
(a) The names and addresses of the owners and operators.
(b) The size of the balloon or the size and weight of the kite.
(c) The location of the operation.
(d) The height above the surface of the earth at which the balloon or kite is to be operated.
(e) The date, time, and duration of the operation.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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Jul 20, 2015 - 08:05am PT
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Gary, I was told the same thing when I purchased this place.
It might depend on where you live, maybe?
There are exceptions to everything, but that's generally the case in the US. Any drone flying around your property is trespassing. Back where I come from trespassers were greeted with a load of rock salt from a shotgun.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 20, 2015 - 08:09am PT
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Yes you do. From the surface you own down to the center of the earth, and upwards to the edge of the universe.
Nope, not at all. Above 500' is National Air Space and that's been upheld a number of times. Below 500' it's a grey area. United States v. Causby. The Holding:
A man does not have control and ownership over the airspace of their property except within reasonable limits to utilize their property. Airspace above a set minimum height is property of the Masses and no one man can accuse airplanes or other such craft within of trespassing on what they own.
so your ownership stops somewhere between 80' and 500'. No real ruling on that and the '46 case specifically left that out. This is an area that needs to get hashed out.
The 80' number comes from the '46 case. an aircraft flying at around 80' caused Causby's chickens to go nuts and kill themselves. He won that case as he should have.
I would like to hear more about how the US is lagging behind in this area.
In terms of commercial use the US is way behind. at the moment there are less than 800 333 Exemptions granted to allow for legal commercial operations (at least legal in the eyes of the FAA - there's no court precedent on any level).
The US appears to be way ahead of the game of using the toy version to do stupid sh#t.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Jul 20, 2015 - 08:10am PT
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Above 400' you own nothing, so if you shoot it down and it's 400' you go to jail. Also for discharging a firearm with in city limits.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 20, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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Shotguns, water guns and rocks - you guys are going about it the wrong way.
Don't Laze me Bro!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 20, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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zBrown writes:
"I think your photos at the border were pretty close to Ream Field, but I won't tell. Ream used to be known as the helicopter capital of the world (1960's)"
I think it may be called Imperial Beach OLF now. It's only about two miles from where I get shots peering over the border into the Tijuana Bullring - with 500' of line out. I'm within a few hundred feet of the border there, closer than the military aircraft will get.
I don't think the Border Patrol even flies their aircraft that close to the border. If I were in their way, they wouldn't keep it to themselves.
( ADAM 69 on the Mexican Border - Monument 258 at the top for reference )
Most of what I do around Fort Casey State Park on Whidbey is close to their OLF. It's deserted most of the time, but when the Navy is using it, you'll know it. They use the OLF in Coupeville for F-18 carrier landing practice like once or twice a month and the noise gives them away every time. Nobody at Fort Casey ever brings in their kites when the Navy's flying, and I've seen some I know are up way over 500'. The Navy never flies over Fort Casey. Just around it.
Mr Beck writes:
"Chaz - the CPUC code is not a blanket ban on flying within 5 miles of an airport. It is a ban that is in effect only if your specific activity presents an ingestion or visual hazard. Flying a kite 100 feet off the deck 2 miles from an airport would never be a hazard, so the ban would not apply."
Let me clear up something on the KAP ( kite aerial photography ) concept.
100' is the absolute minimum airspace overhead I need to keep safe. The kite will be at least 100' up before I hook the camera to the kite string.
( for scale, that's a nine-foot wingspan kite exactly 100' from the camera attachment )
We do that to damp any vibration coming off the kite, and for me, launching one thing at a time is always a good idea.
Sometimes when the wind is blowing gusty-crazy close to the ground, I'll let the kite out several hundred feet, so it flies in smoother air, before tying the camera on.
On this shot, the camera's only up about 50 feet, but the kite's 350' up.
I consider my kites a hazard to any other aircraft. I always keep them under 500'. I'm not interested in sharing the airspace with anyone. If I see low-flying aircraft - or know they may be coming, like around a brush fire - I'm done. I just fold everything up and either go somewhere else or come back a different day.
I'm even a hazard to other kites. I found that out in Seattle, at Gasworks Park.
I thought it'd be cool to get a shot looking down into the group of kite flyers flying kites on Kite Flyers' Hill, and maybe catch someone standing in the Human Sundial so I'd know what time the shot was taken. And it probably would have been cool, except about as soon as I had everything flying and hooked up, the guy next to me and I tangled up our lines. While we were horsing around getting our lines straight, the guy said he sometimes hangs his pocket Canon on his kite string by its wriststrap and brings back aerial shots that way. He had no idea anybody else ever did anything like that, and had never heard of KAP.
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