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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2015 - 06:23am PT
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Just watched Wingmen last night. You know from the outset that one of the three doesn't survive. We don't find out the details because he dies in an outing separate from the two others. The focus of the film is a long trip to fly different terrain all over the world by three flyers. The fellow who dies--along with one other, a third left in a coma--dies because of jumping in bad weather, at least that is the implication. One of the men appears to swear off proximity flying after the death of his friend. I sure hope he did. These are such fine young men. It's tragic to see so many go.
It would seem to me--armchair wingsuit pilot!--that the only reasonably "safe" way to do these jumps would be to NEVER go in sketchy weather (wind/clouds) and use a wingsuit to fly well clear of land features quickly so chute deployment issues and smacking a wall are unlikely events. With the suit, you get a longer flight, and you can reach better landing sites. I suppose, even with these precautions, death is near, but dudes, stack the deck in your favor! If Dean and Graham had NOT been gunning for that notch below Taft Point, they'd both be alive today. Sigh....
BAd
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Gunkie
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 06:38am PT
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IMO, if it doesn't affect many people in a negative way, why should anyone care how people live their lives or fly their wingsuits?
I can see the BASE community having mixed feelings about the potential of having additional negative press precipitated by a number of publicly witnessed and filmed violent deaths in some contrived, for profit, race.
With that said, I'll watch the videos regardless of outcome because it will be as exciting as hell.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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8 more deaths since Potter. Modern gladiators, soon on pay per view.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:41am PT
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Climbing is wicked dangerous. Anyone who thinks wingsuit flying is even in the same galexy danger wise as climbing is delousional...
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:17am PT
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Two words spelled wrong...troll?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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"8 more deaths since Potter"
On my!
When will the supply of base jumpers run out? Are people taking up the places of the fallen at the same rate? Me thinks not. GoPros will bring out the greatest number of participants for the glory of displaying their folly for all to see. But even this thrill may not have as great an attractive force as the effects of gravity that will inexorably bring the supply of base jumpers down - at the steady and unforgiving rate of "8 more deaths since Potter."
I foresee the next phase: Steph Davis starts "Basejumpers Anonymous" to bring back the addicted from the abyss before it is too late. Anyone else see this parallel to recovery from the deadly, addictive diseases (and there are many) coming?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jul 24, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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Tradmanclimbs said Climbing is wicked dangerous. Anyone who thinks wingsuit flying is even in the same galexy danger wise as climbing is delousional...
Really?
http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html
Climbing Everest is the only part of climbing that seems to get you to base humping type risks, and I have similar opinions about how much of a circus and stupid waste of life that is.
I don't have goo statistics on free soloing, but I also have a pretty negative view of those who solo hard stuff and make claims about it being "safe" in any way.
I give a bit of a pass to those who solo (or BASE, or wingsuit) for themselves without GoPro's, and without spraying about it later. Once you are talking sponsors and YouTube videos it becomes a spectacle that I consider to be irresponsible. Dumbass teenagers and 20 somethings can easily get sucked into the spectacle aspect without really appreciating just how awfully dangerous it is.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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8,000m peaks are right up there with the wingsuits. If the rest of the climbing population wanted to replicate their numbers per participants we would probobly have to lose 5 people a day....
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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@Moof:
Interesting table! I'm confused about "odds of dying," however, in some categories. For example, the odds of dying swimming are 1 in 56,587. Uh, 56,587 what? Times going swimming? Is swimming twice as dangerous as skydiving? A little help for the thick-headed here, please.
BAd
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 24, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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I'll have to show the stats to my wife tonight. She's a numbers person. I always tell her that commuting to work on my road bike is more dangerous than climbing... now I've gone the research to back it up. Thanks Moof!
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
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The AAC published an article in summer 2004 that had similar problematic statistics - e.g. the fatality rate (per attempt?) on Rainier and Denali was 15-20/100,000, and motor vehicles were also ~ 15/100,000.
But how much more time is spent in a vehicle? How many more trips? Perhaps a better comparison would be motor vehicle deaths that occurred per climbing trip? I think, in that case, it would become clear that climbing Denali or Rainier is significantly MORE dangerous than driving in a car.
Climbing is more dangerous than driving - it just is. Any attempt to pretend that these risks are the same is, in my opinion, a lack of self-awareness and choosing to be in denial.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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When you look at the statistics obviously the most dangerous thing is just being male. So females can probably jump all they want with low risk. *sarcasm.
Really IMO this discussion is about how much risk is crazy. There's different disciplines of climbing and of BASE. Some more risky than others. At least that's what I see on the OP. Is close proximity wingsuit flying crazy? Is free soloing near your redpoint limit crazy?
But really it's just common sense that most forms of BASE jumping are more dangerous than most forms of rock climbing. Not that anyone shouldn't do them, or they should be banned. But the risk of rock climbing such as sport climbing or PG rated trad climbing is much lower than the risk of even the most tame forms of BASE jumping unless you do something really dumb.
And yeah there's lots of crappy statistics out. It really needs to be broken down to be really useful. Such death per climber-days, per 1000 miles driven, per jump and so forth. But even incomplete numbers like those help give a ballpark idea of risk.
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Heisenberg
Trad climber
RV, middle of Nowehere
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Jul 24, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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Funny to see 99% arm chair jumpers discuss risk and BASE jumping. Tom and Mark in this discussion have really provide a solid POV.
A climber just cratered and you don't see anyone on the BASE boards talking about it?
Why? 1. It's the BASE board. 2. most jumpers aren't rock climbers; so they don't talk sh#t about topics they know nothing about.
Anyone can use statistical numbers to advocate for their cause. Life is as dangerous as you wanna make it. Just like anything else out there.
Ask me.... Bachar was a fool then. He risked it all.... for nothing.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 24, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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Oh my......so many of you have much to learn about empathy and the price loved ones have to pay for admission just to watch this game of life.
The price of admission is high, I lost my best friend to a BASE stunt or at least I saw it that way. His kids experience a life sentence of grief each and every day.
People won't remember what you did or said, but will always remember how you made them feel......don't leave them thinking for a minute you didn't think of them. Some of us are better than others on who comes first.
Safe passage.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
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Well, I never!
Bubbles thinks I am a fake!
Guess I will have to go do that trick myself. It really poses no danger. Every time it has been tried, it has succeeded. Look at the statistics man.
I'll need a GoPro though. Is the $129 model pretty good?
Edit:
Granny was indicating she clearly did not want to exit the plane. That should have ended it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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Life is especially dangerous if you become a lemming and you are caught up in the moment.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2015 - 10:25pm PT
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Bachar was a fool then. He risked it all.... for nothing.
In 1974 at the peak of my form I came down with meniere's. During those attacks all I could do was curl up in the prenatal position and puke my guts out. There never was a warning. I got so frustrated I third classed an easy climb. Just as John lost an arm without warning I started to have an attack when up a hundred feet. I managed to climb out. John didn't.
Was I a fool? Clearly. But we all are human. Best to keep that in mind.
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 25, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Ban Gopros
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jstan
climber
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Jul 25, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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Two beers are heavy drinking for me. Stress is reportedly a trigger for Meniere's. To climb out I had to stare straight ahead and not change head position at all. Used the Braille technique to find holds.
As the years went by instead of having attacks I have periods where I feel oddly tired.
Nerves going through the ear are an absolute mess. Blame the fish.
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