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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
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yes yes
fact: "laws" do not stop people from not stopping at stop signs, failing to seat belt their
four year old, fail to stop anyone from buying a firearm and killing with it
therefore:......wait for it....
"that is simply the price we pay for living in a free and open society"
conclusion: there are no solutions, solutions require more laws, laws don't work
bottom line: The Slippery Slope - it all about me! any talk about "solutions" to senseless
firearm murder could, maybe, result in the Feds coming to take my guns away
so forget that sh!t, instead keep quietly insisting that is the price we pay to live "free"
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
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The kid was not insane.
This was a calculated act of political terrorism, aimed squarely at African-American citizens in the American south.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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They can make all kinds of laws that wont interfere with our inalienable rights.
But, it'd be useless since some wont follow them, much like drunk driving. The only way to get a bad drunk driver off the road is with a good drunk driver, millions of them.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:06pm PT
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Look at the history of racial violence in this country. It was often sanctioned by the pillars of their local communities. In many cases these men were active participants in the violence.
The "lone nut" theory does nothing to explain the fact of consistent racial terror targeted mainly against African-Americans in the United States.
http://withoutsanctuary.org
There are clear historical reasons that the Stars and Bars is still flying at the top of its pole on the South Carolina State House.
Even if this specific shooter was a bit (or a lot) disturbed, he was unambiguously acting within a long social and political tradition. That grim fact cannot be dismissed, cannot be waved away.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
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Super big time regulation...
Wouldn't solve everything...
Nothing does...
But most likely would save some lives...
exactly
and that could be done without "taking my guns away"
but won't happen because "they might take my guns away"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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Norton, what is your solution? Since U. S. gun violence per capita has been on a fairly decline for the last several decades, what do you think is bringing that about? I rather suspect part of the reason is simple demographics. As our society aged with the Baby Boomers, violence per capita decreased, but I hope we did something else that we can emulate and expand.
Spiny Norman and Locker, "insane" can have rather imprecise meanings. In the legal sense, an "insane" person has no blame for his or her actions because he or she doesn't know right from wrong. I have no doubt that Roof was not insane under that criterion. He carefully planned his actions, and cultivated an attitude that caused him to carry out his murders.
I would hope, though, that normal people do not think it their mission to murder other humans because the vitims differ from the perpetrator. Those capable of functioning constructively in society possess enough self-restrain to avoid committing violence except in the most extraordinary circumstances of grave danger. In that sense, his mentality was at least abnormal (no 'Young Frankenstein" jokes, please).
If we know someone lacks that necessary self-restraint, I would find anyone giving that person possession of a firearm engaging in criminal behavior. That does not violate any Second Amendment jurisprudence of which I am aware.
One other thought: Many people have expressed a belief that strong gun controls in urban areas have not reduced gun violence. I'm wondering if Crimpie (if she still reads ST) or any other with knowledge is aware of any studies that differentiate gun violence per capita between areas with strong vs. permissive gun ownership controls in the U.S., or that compare before-and-after statistics in areas that enact more stingent controls. Comparing U.S. gun deaths, where gun ownership is so prevalent, with those in, say, Australia, where gun ownership is rare, strikes me as a non-useful comparison, but comparing across jurisdictions in the U.S., all of which are subject to the Second Amendment, might give some useful results.
John
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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The quickest way to stop an evil man with a gun, is a good one with one.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Growing up my dad was always the armed deacon or usher.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Violent crime is decreasing across the industrialized world, not just in the US.
No one knows why.
One possible explanation, seemingly as plausible as any other, is that this decrease in violence is due to the removal of lead from gasoline.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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U. S. gun violence per capita has been on a fairly decline for the last several decades
John, has the number of mass murders gone up or down? Do those statistics differentiate?
I really don't know, just asking.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
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"The quickest way to stop an evil man with a gun, is a good one with one."
In some places it is vastly easier for an evil man to get a gun than in other places.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
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Johnboy, the number has generally been steady. See below.
It's more fashionable to report on them now.
One other observation. Two of the biggest mass murders - the Oklahoma City bombing and the 9/11 attacks, are not included because they did not involve mass shootings.
John
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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I knew the "if everyone was armed someone could have shot the shooter" argument would be out within hours. But even if that is true why do we tolerate a society where people feel the need to carry a gun to church or school to protect themselves? The Wild West wasn't even that lawless and certainly no other developed nation is now.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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These nut cases always pick a presumed "gun free zone" to attack, never one where they are likely to encounter an armed defender.
Why is that?
This guy's arrest record comes from a probable attempt to case a shopping mall in February.
Maybe he discovered that location wasn't as "gun free" as he presumed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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In his remarks the next day President Obama pushed gun control and reminded us all of America's "dark past."
I would have thought it better to say something like "Let's all go to a church on Sunday. All of us regardless of our heritage or religious beliefs. Better yet go to an A.M.E. Church. Pack the churches. We need a national display of support for the grieving families, friends and church members of these young people so callously massacred."
If he is really serious about guns he should have waited at least until the dead were buried, then put a bill up to debate.
He could have pointed out that although this act was motivated by a dark, evil racism, our nation needs to look forward, to continue along the path we have followed since Lincoln and before. There have been fits and starts and a civil war which took more than half a million lives, but we are better off now than before.
If you don't agree we’ve improved ourselves as a nation talk to my stepdad. He was a freedom rider and did hard time in Parchman State Penn in Mississippi for his chosen act of civil disobedience, using a colored bathroom at the Trailways Bus Station. He'll fill you in on the ignorance of the north and the brutal white supremacy of the deep south in the 1950s.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
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next day President Obama pushed gun control and reminded us all of America's "dark past." This is all the blather on Fox & talk radio.
How many times has the President had to address a community after a mass shooting? 9? 10?
He also said this:
Any death of this sort is a tragedy. Any shooting involving multiple victims is a tragedy. There is something particularly heartbreaking about the death happening in a place in which we seek solace and we seek peace, in a place of worship.
Mother Emanuel is, in fact, more than a church. This is a place of worship that was founded by African Americans seeking liberty. This is a church that was burned to the ground because its worshipers worked to end slavery. When there were laws banning all-black church gatherings, they conducted services in secret. When there was a nonviolent movement to bring our country closer in line with our highest ideals, some of our brightest leaders spoke and led marches from this church’s steps. This is a sacred place in the history of Charleston and in the history of America...
Until the investigation is complete, I’m necessarily constrained in terms of talking about the details of the case. But I don’t need to be constrained about the emotions that tragedies like this raise. I’ve had to make statements like this too many times. Communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times. We don’t have all the facts, but we do know that, once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun. Now is the time for mourning and for healing.
The good news is I am confident that the outpouring of unity and strength and fellowship and love across Charleston today, from all races, from all faiths, from all places of worship indicates the degree to which those old vestiges of hatred can be overcome. That, certainly, was Dr. King’s hope just over 50 years ago, after four little girls were killed in a bombing in a black church in Birmingham, Alabama.
He said they lived meaningful lives, and they died nobly. “They say to each of us,” Dr. King said, “black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. They say to us that we must be concerned not merely with [about] who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American Dream.
“And if one will hold on, he will discover that God walks with him, and that God is able to lift you from the fatigue of despair to the buoyancy of hope, and transform dark and desolate valleys into sunlit paths of inner peace.”
Reverend Pinckney and his congregation understood that spirit. Their Christian faith compelled them to reach out not just to members of their congregation, or to members of their own communities, but to all in need. They opened their doors to strangers who might enter a church in search of healing or redemption.
Mother Emanuel church and its congregation have risen before –- from flames, from an earthquake, from other dark times -– to give hope to generations of Charlestonians. And with our prayers and our love, and the buoyancy of hope, it will rise again now as a place of peace.
So, he didn't just talk about our "dark past".
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
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"These nut cases always pick a presumed "gun free zone" to attack, never one where they are likely to encounter an armed defender."
Unless you count, say, last week's assault on the Dallas Police Department. To take just one among many, many examples.
Try harder.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jun 19, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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Who has not suffered for the sins of their parents Locker.
And SC must have gun laws where you can't just give a pistol
to another person without a fed background check and paperwork
handled by a licened gun dealer?
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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The quickest way to stop an evil man with a gun, is a good one with one.
What if the good one misses, Wendell?
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
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And SC must have gun laws where you can't just give a pistol
to another person without a fed background check and paperwork
handled by a licened gun dealer?
nope
like most southern states SC has very permissive gun laws
anyone can buy a gun from anyone else
only a new gun requires a background check through a gun dealer
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 19, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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instead keep quietly insisting that is the price we pay to live "free"
I'm not "quietly" insisting. I'm flatly stating it.
Freedom does not equal safety or security. Freedom actually implies a certain lack of safety and security. Freedom isn't free... or so the free and brave used to understand.
Of course, today we are certainly no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave. We've become a nation of government-dependent, hand-wringing, simpering pussies! "Oh, save me! Save me whatever the cost!"
Pathetic!
And, again, no proposed gun law would have prevented this. This sicko would have probably passed a background check right up until the moment he decided to reveal his nuttiness.
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