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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Master (of what-self-deception?),
I know, just ask yourself why police agencies throughout this country unanimously oppose a national data base to be kept by the FBI keeping track of police shootings/killings. Is it because they believe 99% of their shootings are justifiable?
"Punks" are individuals that speak loudly and harshly thinking that substitutes for logic and reason.
Look in the mirror.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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TheMaster....here's a reply from an immature punk....I take that as a compliment, it must mean I look young for my age.
As to my comments being baseless the numbers speak for themselves. There was an earlier comment about the number of people killed by police in Germany a tiny, tiny fraction on a per capita bases of what is occuring here.
I stand by my comment that there is a runaway gun culture in this country. No other first world country has anywhere close to the gun related problems that we have. We are the laughingstock of the civilized world.
I don't really blame the police for being trigger happy, you would be too if you felt that anyone you approached could be carrying a concealed weapon.
The police in countries like Great Britain and Germany don't have that problem. It's a rare person indeed who carries a hand gun in those countries.
American Exceptionalism , once again, is taking us down the wrong street.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Almost every adult male in Switzerland has an automatic weapon available. They don't use
them on their fellow citizens because they're not whacked out psychos who dropped out of
high school at 15 and got 6 girls pregnant by then.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The problem for the most part is the CULTURE, officers believe they are untouchable because admittedly they have a tough job. But then they fall into the trap of believing their own propaganda, fostering excessive recourse to violent and lethal methods. Certain departments are better than others at curtailing the excesses, but many go overboard defending their officers. We always have to deal with the political issue when we try to settle; after all, how many city council officials are willing to pay money for police misconduct and risk being tagged as not backing up their officers.
Good post. In my experience the majority of LEOs are great. But I have come across some bad ones as well. It's the culture that is so infuriating. Rushing to the defense of another cop simply because he's a cop. Cops need to obey the law too, or they are also criminals.
Like the pregnant woman who was arrested and pushed to the ground in Barstow. It's all on the officer's camera and the ACLU just released the video. She clearly did nothing illegal. She refused to show id, which is her legal right, and the cop says you have two minutes to show it to me, gives her less than 30 seconds then grabs her and pushes her down. If the dept. was unbiased they would have said "no comment" but the dept. defended the cop and said she was resisting arrest, when she should not have been arrested at all. She was just standing up for her rights, and the law and order types may not be willing to do that, but some brave people are, which is good because they are sticking up for all our rights. Just that police statement shows how messed up the culture is. Instead of admitting a mistake (or at least saying no comment) they get defensive and try to justify what the officer did.
And one of the worst things of all is that instead of the officers paying for their own mistakes by getting unpaid leave, losing their jobs, or going to jail, the taxpayers often end up paying for their mistakes though big settlements with the cities.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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You guys are framing the issue as if ALL "killings" at the hands of cops are bad. Just because a cop killed someone, the cop must be doing something wrong. No one said this and I'm certain no one here believes it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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How bout we make a law that says any crime by a police officer gets double the normal sentence. Not sure if I agree with my own Idea. But I do believe Police should be held to very high standards or gotten rid of. For that matter any government official.
Criminals who are policemen are a very bad type of criminal indeed. The type that destroys nations if there are too many.
Even a simply incompetent policeman is a big threat to his community. Lot of power to do harm in that position.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Criminals who are members of La Raza are a very bad type of criminal indeed. The type that destroys nations if there are too many.
Fixed that for you.
I agree with the higher standard. But our police also need freedom to act. Doubling penalties when here are so many gray areas when the going gets tough will hamstring the cops. No cop is going to take a chance on losing his job, pension and maybe face jail time because some zealous prosecutor or a mayor decides to make an example.
I do appreciate your point though.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa y Perrito Ruby
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On the contrary, Mr. Donini is making baseless comments and being rude to the hard working cops out there. No apology.
Not too many cops read this forum.
I've hung out with a lot of cops and have relatives who were cops. The notion that there are not very many corrupt and/or depraved ones out there is nonsense.
Not saying that there are probably a lot more non-corrupt and/or non-depraved ones (who nonetheless refuse to give up the bad ones).
-Serpico Revisited
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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He's doing his evening solo of the Naked Edge in Eldo. He usually follows that with a glass of port and a cohiba cigar at the CU Young Republican's Club......something about mentoring.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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American Exceptionalism , once again, is taking us down the wrong street.
Says it all ,right there,..Mr. Donini
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Treat the police unions like all the other public sector unions and see how much leverage remains for immunity for crimes committed against the public...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Defenders of police militarization, such as that on display in Ferguson, Missouri, often claim that it’s necessary to provide military gear to cops, given how dangerous law enforcement has become.
But has policing really become so dangerous that we need to arm peace officers like an invading army? The answer is no. It's never been safer to be a cop.
To start with, few police officers die in the line of duty. Since 1900, only 18,781 police officers have died from any work-related injury. That's an average of 164 a year. In absolute terms, officer fatalities peaked in 1930 (during alcohol prohibition) at 297, spiking again in the 1970s before steadily declining since.
If you look at police fatalities adjusted for the US population, the decline is even starker. 2013 was the safest year for American policing since 1875.
In 2013, out of approximately 900,000 sworn officers, just 100 died from a job-related injury. That's about 11.1 per 100,000, or a rate of 0.01%.
Policing doesn't even make it into the top 10 most dangerous American professions.
**Logging has a fatality rate 11 times higher, at 127.8 per 100,000. Fishing: 117 per 100,000. Pilot/flight engineer: 53.4 per 100,000. It's twice as dangerous to be a truck driver as a cop—at 22.1 per 100,000.
**
Another point to bear in mind is that not all officer fatalities are homicides. Out of the 100 deaths in 2013, 31 were shot, 11 were struck by a vehicle, 2 were stabbed, and 1 died in a "bomb-related incident." Other causes of death were: aircraft accident (1), automobile accident (28), motorcycle accident (4), falling (6), drowning (2), electrocution (1), and job-related illness (13).
Even assuming that half these deaths were homicides, policing would have a murder rate of 5.55 per 100,000, comparable to the average murder rate of U.S. cities: 5.6 per 100,000. It's more dangerous to live in Baltimore (35.01 murders per 100,000 residents) than to be a cop in 2014.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Truck driving is dangerous because of where they eat, with the cops.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
The Peaks
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2015 - 12:48am PT
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Let's live in Hope ( a good place to live)....
After all there have been no lynchings in the USA since the early 1960's, such a shame lynching has been replaced by 'death by cop'.
I don't blame the copes neither - with so many guns on the streets of the USA who wouldn't be trigger happy. And yes of course there are bad guys with guns.
It's the tradition of guns that causes so much daily pain in the USA, especially amongst the living -
.....the parents of children murdered in schools have a daily struggle with life.
I think what the Guardian is doing, and the NYT can help to initiate change - less death by guns in the USA.
Surely everyone would want that.
Mick
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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American gun culture has zip to do with crime in the inner city. American gun culture as I know it is grand dads lever action winchester and going to hunting camp in the fall. keeping a shotgun in the barn to deal with the birds eating the seed corn before it gets a chance to sprout. blasting tin cans in the gravel pit and tueseday night trap at the range. Lots of adult supervision untill you are old enough to be responsible and the only crimes resulting are tragic alchohol fueled domestic meltdowns later in life. how that gets blamed for inner city gang banging is beyond me?
Baltemore has about 90 shootings a month with about 30 fatalitys resulting. Thats about equal to US casultys in the peak of the Iraq war. baltemore is the place where a nice young man offered to shoot me over a parking spot at Ikea. thats not american gun culture. that is just being an as#@&%e. If they stop acting like as#@&%es and start helping themselfs and each other they could change their situation for the better. If they continue to be as#@&%es and keep blameing their problems on other people it gets worse not better.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Chances are good that bad police have always murdered people. We're just seeing some of them now due to technology.
Power corrupts.... always has and always will.
The major problem is when such murderous thugs are protected rather than purged from the system.
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couchmaster
climber
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One son of holocaust survivors, now a US Judge, noted: "The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed -- where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once."
Started out as a police shooting citizen thread and some of you are now blaming the recipients of the police bullets, many whom had no weapon, of said shootings. Hmmm. If only we could get the population disarmed, the police (and the military) can be trusted not to shoot any random citizens or a fleeing unarmed black man in the back. I can see that...... Not.
Google "Operation Northwoods" and edumacation yerself. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html Oh, and when you get to the Wiki page, please do remember that the Pentagon alone hires over 28,000 full time employees who's only job it is to edit such pages so that you have a better view of them. Other agencies (CIA, FBI, ATF etc etc) also have such types of folks but perhaps not in such large quantites.
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