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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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May 21, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
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Hmmm....
Sketchy Andy comes to mind when he BASE jumped with no previous experience and almost killed himself after hitting the wall.
A guy died while attempting that huge arch swing out in Moab or wherever not too long after that video was posted with everyone dancing around.
In my 6 years of climbing, I have noticed more and more beginner climbers wanting to solo.
We live in an area of increasing narcissism thanks to social media. While most climbers, BASE jumpers, and high-liners have the ego-strength to check themselves and learn the "ropes" in whatever discipline, there is still that small fraction of idiots who have an illusion of invulnerability that will get them killed.
Cheers,
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 21, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
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I'm just curious; years ago when Bachar offered $10,000 to anyone who would follow him around in his free-solos, how many responded?
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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May 21, 2015 - 01:01pm PT
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I would like to highlight to points John brought up in his original post. The first was (in referring to Clif Bar's actions) was implied intent (not verbatim wording). It's hard for me to believe that in their internal discussions the subject of copy catting by the unqualified didn't come up as well as any potential liability issues related to this. I would venture to say most companies are governed more by potential liability issues rather than by their conscious (not implying this is necessarily true with Clif Bar). Secondly, John used the word "unwitting" I believe to describe potential copy catters. Dean and Graham were hardly unwitting followers (as suggested by Ken M )but rather cutting edge innovators. Sometimes the edge cuts sharply. There is a difference between being inspired by the actions of others and then learning and practicing the craft as opposed to the actions of fools who rush in. Clif Bar certainly can do what they please as can the sporting public. I'm sure any sponsorship money was nice to those who received it but Dean, Graham, Alex etal do what they do because they love it.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 21, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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copy catting by the unqualified
The number one goal being - out of concern for self and family .. that I don't ever get taken out by f*#king up. .. I want to prove that it can be done for a long life, until I'm an old man. Dean Potter
Who are these unqualified? Our hero was unqualified to achieve his number one goal.
I'm human too, and I want to achieve that same goal of not dying because my brain f*#ked up processing all of the information that my environment presents.
And I'm also affected by this environment that we help to create. That's the same reality that we all face.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 21, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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two perhaps vaguely related things
when I was a kid my mom often asked me; "If so and so told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?"
I always said no. and then years later, fixing pitches on leaning tower my partner said "Dude we've gotta jump off this ledge,it will be awesome." so I did and it was.
second thing: http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/the-only-blasphemy
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
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It was a smart move by Cliffbar to dump these guys. Cliffbar has a bland and boring product with a synthetic texture, and Alex and Dean does not represent that image.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 21, 2015 - 03:40pm PT
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My second point, and one I have been hearing for ages, is that people doing wild and sometimes unhinged acts exert a direct influence on the actions of others. This is the point that seems largely unfounded in plain fact. Yes, we are all enlivened by the idea of hitting like Babe Ruth, running like Bolt, climbing like Potter, but the idea that imagining doing so leads to our own demise is to me, an exaggeration that come out of a kind of advertising mentailty - that is, a company, or an individual, need only say or do somethng and the rest of the crowd - or at least the suggestable ones - will follow suite. Perhaps not nearly at the level of the pros, but at a personally fatal level just the same.
Well...I don't think this "wild" and "unhinged acts" would get much play if they weren't advertised to begin with. While I like watching these exploits, they make good entertainment fodder, I cringe a bit thinking about their impact on folks who would emulate them.
And...they do. Of course they do. And have. Forever. That's why streaking became popular in the 70's (ha ha).
When you have extensively viewed footage of climbers (hero's in the sport, sponsored athletes) who solo hard routes, jump off in wild locations with base rigs, complain about being tooled by the man, then, I think some percentage of the population gets empowered to either follow suit, or, feel justified that they have a kindred soul. Can we blame Ferguson MO on Valley Uprising? I dunno...cause and effect...
I can think of a few climbing fatalities that make me wonder. The gal that died in Indian Creek soloing (Naked and the Dead I dimly recall? Or near there). I'd heard she made a comment, when questioned about soloing, of a high profile gal also soloing in the area...
Popular youtube video of kids jumping and swinging off Corona Arch near Moab? Who thought that was going to end well? Couple of fatalities and a land swap later, and, the BLM has banned that activity there. Cause and effect? I think so.
I had (ok, have still) a poster of Bachar soloing. When I bought my Fires, first thing I did? I soloed a route that at the time wasn't a heck of a lot lower than my lead ability. Was I influenced by the image from the poster, the shoes, a hero? Yeah, maybe a bit. Was it thrilling? Sure. Had I f'd up and been killed, would have any of it come back on the ad? Not sure anyone woulda made that link.
JL, your story about trying to follow Bachar (an incredible piece of writing, by the way)...well...the feelings that you invoke may be a draw to some folks who want to experience the same. Might be a low percentage. But really, its romanticizing that type of behavior methinks. Come what may.
Anyhoo...random and stream of consciousness thoughts about all this...which has always made me wonder...
Thanks.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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May 21, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Psilocyborg said:
Cliffbar has a bland and boring product with a synthetic texture, and Alex and Dean does not represent that image. It can make sense for a company with a bland and boring product to spice up their image by sponsoring someone who is not.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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May 21, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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I'll admit to reading only the first 2 pages then skipping to the last...
N00b move I know.
In regards to non-n00bs being pressured or encouraged to do dangerous activities or dangerous risks to try to be like someone else...
I personally know a very well regarded climber who got pressured into a recreational simul-rap with a crazy person after swearing (and still swears) that simul-raps are dangerous and should be avoided whenever one can.
90% of my climbing career, and many of my most dangerous climbing experiences were (and are) initiated in an attempt to be more like all the people who are healthier, stronger, better, and just generally cooler than I am. In my life, those that fall behind get left behind. Don't want to get left behind? Show up. Don't fall behind. Don't like it? Get left outside of the club/tribe/whatever.
Everyone can be influenced, encouraged, and pressured. The outcome of that is up to the individual.
Companies aren't individuals and cannot be expected to act like it. Different game, different parameters.
And yes...I'm still having fun trying to be someone else. ;)
2p
cheers
LS
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 21, 2015 - 05:56pm PT
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I don't accept the premise that Clif dropped sponsorship thinking novices could potentially emulate dangerous activities like BASE. By sponsoring athletes who BASE jump, they're putting a stamp of approval on an activity that is one of the most dangerous things a person being can do, especially with the advent of proximity wingsuit descents. They weren't comfortable with that. Sadly, the reasons are becoming tragically apparent.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
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90% of my climbing career, and many of my most dangerous climbing experiences were (and are) initiated in an attempt to be more like all the people who are healthier, stronger, better, and just generally cooler than I am. In my life, those that fall behind get left behind. Don't want to get left behind? Show up. Don't fall behind. Don't like it? Get left outside of the club/tribe/whatever.
This is what I termed up thread as Evolution. We see it everywhere in the animal kingdom. Sadly we still see it today in humans.
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 21, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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From that other thread:
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
May 21, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
^^^^
"It almost moves me to tears knowing that I live in a world that I can do these things. No matter what, I want to do this some day..." Matthew Boren, YouTube commenter
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 21, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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Reilly: Does it even take two hands to count the number of companies who have undertaken serious changes based on 'ethics' that are not conflated with preaching to the choir?
If you count social entrepreneurs in the group who attend business schools, then yes. There are more organizations that are starting to show up in the mix. And there is research that indicates that customers are paying attention with their pocketbooks. (See: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121018735490274425); (Also look at the book on Amazon, “Good Company,” or go to http://www.goodcompanyindex.com/ to see that there is empirical evidence that shows that it pays to be a “worthy company.”)
There are more and more young people in my classes (especially the undergrads) who want to do “the right thing,” but organizations are immensely powerful. What is also powerful is having 2.3 cars, 2.3 kids, and a home with a white picket fence around it. (Before they know it, students become one of “them.”)
I fight that insidious influence by demanding students proclaim what their sense of “work ethics” are by the end of the course. They do NOT want to do it. They fight me at every turn. Unfortunately for them, I have the grading pen.
KenM: Your last sentence, tho, doesn't quite address the issue of how the community establishes it's ethics, such as the climbing community. I think it is through discussions like this thread.
You bet, Ken. Agreed.
I’d also add that early history in organizations have powerful and lasting influences on a community’s values and beliefs, especially those of “founders.” Founders cast long shadows.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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May 21, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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Understand this... wingsuits are probably the worst flying devices ever invented... they are not designed to make split second turns and be flown with great accuracy. Their airframe is your body. As we have seen in many instances, the people flying these things have too little time to make corrections when things go wrong. You are flying an aircraft that has been demonstrated to be unsafe under certain conditions. Yet people go out and push these things to limits that they really don't understand and as a result end up dead. Regular aircraft are tested so that their performance envelope can be determined to a high degree... do the BASE jumpers really know the extreme limits of these suits? I don't think so... they learn by trial and error and hopefully get away with... thus pushing the envelope in a wingsuit means flying it beyond its design limits and can only lead to disaster. It is surely a fools errand. That's is why the new guys are not getting killed.. they are very cautions... and why the more experienced flyers are getting killed as they are trying things for which the suits are not designed.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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May 21, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
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I don't see the real question here as being about emulation, noobs or anything of the sort.
There is a culture in the Valley that Dean and friends were near the center of that Cliff bar decided to pull out of.
This is a culture that goes back to Robbins, Bachar, Croft and later Dean and his modern contemporaries.
How far can I push this?
This is a segment of guys who could only become superstars - to live out their perceived superior potential, to rise to the top of their peer's admiration, to find approval from their father, unconditional love from their mother, WTF-ever - by pushing danger right to the edge of death - and being all cool about it, like it's nothing, like God endowed this individual with special powers, like they transcend space and time - untouchable - safe - don't measure my time and beat me, I'm an artist.
No need to train, compete and get your whole life shot down at the Olympic Trials in one of those traditional sports practiced by "boring" schmucks - everyone can be a superstar in the Valley, you just need to find the right niche - A5, Base, Freesolo, one handed, no handed, 3 in a day handed, in the dark - WTF ever.
It's all becoming a bit much...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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How far can I push this?
I agree with you up to this point. But the rest I whole heartingly DISAGREE.
From Harding till Potter, I think, the sole proprietary motivation has been Adventure! The lure of "the first accent", the lure in A5 as "I must NOT fall", to do what hasn't been done! etc. In these, competition lies within and against one's own self, and the environment. NOT against another person. But because another person hasn't done it yet. Nawwhaimean?
Now when you just race up the Nose to beat someone else's time. That's more in line to your meaning, I think?
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 21, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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All you kooks having an opinion about why who did or does what is just a fart in the wind my friends.
There is no one blanket reason or answer for anything when it comes to others motivations
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 21, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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^^^ I think if you were to look a little broader, like at all of mankind, and at our cousins in the animal kingdom. Then take a close look. You might discover our motivations are not that much dissimilar..
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
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everyone can be a superstar in the Valley, you just need to find the right niche - A5, Base, Freesolo, one handed, no handed, 3 in a day handed, in the dark - WTF ever.
--
Except not "everyone" can do the things on that laundry list, or can get even close. If you could - would you?
I threw out a few rough ideas and got some great responses. Thanks.
JL
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