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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Mar 17, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
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I recall that we used 5/16" buttonheads at Wright's Lake, near Phantom Spires, in the late '80s. I believe that the routes "The Fin" and "The Prow", and probably some others, too, had these bolts, originally. I hope they have been replaced.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:10am PT
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Here is a photo of a 1/4" split shaft which shows the same type of cracking.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:23am PT
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If I had to guess I'd probably say that Scott has probably done this same thing on this same climb in the past without issue. He's been climbing in the Gorge for 2 decades. Once again we see that, like car accidents, so many of our climbing accidents are close to home on familiar terrain with experienced climbers making what most of us would describe as "beginner" mistakes. The most mundane of climbs can kill just as readily as the most harrowing.
Thank you to Greg and all the rest who have taken the time to investigate and dissect this accident. For some reason it feels a little better knowing the details of the event and seeing the bolt in question. I pray that Scott did not suffer in his last moments and my heart aches that he was alone during that time.
I've always thought of myself a bit weak for not trusting these kinds of bolts more readily but now I feel justified in my wariness.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:29am PT
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Sederstrom had a stick-clip attached to his harness. The evidence suggests that he was going bolt to bolt—unclipping the one below as he went. I used to live near ORG in the early 90s, and that was a scenario I'd thought about for rope soloing there.
I was too lazy to ever try it, but also a red flag goes off in your mind about relying on one bolt entirely like that.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:11am PT
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I still have about eight or so of these when I was using them(in Colorado) in the late 80's. Does it make sense to do some testing or should they all just get replaced? BH
Testing cuts both ways. If you misjudge and test to too high a level one can weaken. A better approach is for one person using exactly the same procedure to place a statistically significant number of bolts in a test piece of the rock under consideration, and then to test those to failure.
Prior to WWII the War Department spent millions working out a reliable process for swaging the cables that were used to control B17's. Our habit of having climbers with no established statistical base out placing personal protective gear does not bear examination. With the emphasis our culture now places on personal safety, what we are doing will come to no good.
Edit:
Jstan,
Many here probably agree with you. Solution?
One of the first things I learned is not to propose answers when raising important questions. Doing so just causes conflict that prevents discussion. Everyone has to wrestle with a problem on a creative level if there is ever to be consensus.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 18, 2015 - 03:56am PT
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The fruits of our labors have come home to roost,
The time that jstan alludes to is now. Placing gear, bolts is close to
Rocket science when in the hands of uninformed climbers.
Is there a course in the gyms as to how to place bolts ? It could be a good revenue stream.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 06:40am PT
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Bruce,
Replace them all, There are some climbing areas that are replacing everything non-stainless.
Jstan,
Many here probably agree with you. Solution?
Greg,
Thanks for stockpiling me before you left. Looks like a busy season.
Clint,
We got work now.
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MJrose
Sport climber
California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:00am PT
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Thank you all for this analysis. My heart goes out to friends and family, such a tragedy.
RE what Franky said about the hanger being bomber, I have always been suspicious of buttonheads but is there any other takeaway for climbers as far as visual inspecting? Aside from the obvious that is (redundancy, don't be too trusting of bolts, etc). As someone said, there was no obvious signs of rust.
I don't bolt routes although I am always trying to learn about the process because I feel like it is part of understanding the risks we take. Here's hoping this can be a call to action for climbers to donate to rebolting efforts.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:37am PT
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Maybe we should adopt a 25 year rule on all bolts (for free climbs).
Permanent anchors get wear and tear from use and mother nature. Those "things" that were once bolts in the caymens and thailand that rot into the sea are a reminder that everything goes back to the earth at some point. Maybe this is also a good thing in that clean gear placements may come back in vogue as you, the leader, determine viability of your protection versus the trust of a fixed object. a 50 year old stainless bolt, is still 50 years old.
We used a lot of zinc 5 piece back in the late 80s and some used USE diamond taper bolts. Both will clean out pretty easy. A fair number of 5/16 buttonheads were placed (in a standard hand drilled hole) but most are in remote ares with little use except Wiley Javelina on Table dome that gets some traffic.
I have seen a lot of crap bolts in the desert-the real desert -bolt ladders on Chinle Spire and (shudder) Eagle Rock... I would rather that the rare repeat ascents do not loose that experience. A.4 bolt ladders Beckey and Bjornstad placed that have needed "love" over time. Bolting through with 1/2" would turn them into Mexican Hat- which was a joke route to begin with and once was home to Todd Gordon's baby angle.
Please, if there is going to be a mass effort to replace all this hardware keep it to the popular routes and leave the obscurities alone.
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Dimes
Social climber
Wonderland of Retirement
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:54am PT
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] Our habit of having climbers with no established statistical base out placing personal protective gear does not bear examination. With the emphasis our culture now places on personal safety, what we are doing will come to no good.
Jstan, please expound on your line of thought. Are you saying that present "modern" bolting and re-bolting materials/techniques will result in failures that may lead to injury/death lawsuits?
If a bolt placed must be forever A+ bombproof, then only "certified" bolts placed in perfect rock verified by (state?) inspectors would be acceptable.
We have this testing of bolts after placement to verify specs in work performed on hospitals, bridges, ect. At inspection the inspectors record manufacturer, lot and serial numbers of the products used and torque test 50% to 100% of our bolts. If one bolt failed they would test 100% of the bolts we placed for that particular construction. Certain situations in seismic work require certified pull test for all epoxied bolts.
Are we looking for this level of guaranteed safety? We can try but with all the variables in natural rock and corrosion/stress factors this is not going to happen.
Replacing old bolts along with redundancy and backups are a climbers best choice.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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Lessons to be learned here don't seem very complicated to me.
Try not to rely on a single point of failure. A single bolt in this case. If you do make sure it's a relatively new bolt (or super bomber piece) in good rock. We all do it occasionally but it's a horrible thing to make a habit of and become comfortable with.
Wear a helmet.
Support the ASCA!
Old news we all know. Sadly it's usually the things we all know that are involved in the vast majority of accidents.
It would be nice to know how old a bolt is. Perhaps it would be worth the effort for manufactures to date stamp all hangers with the year of manufacture. Not a perfect system since folks may hang onto them a few years before install but it would at least help inform future climbers and retrofits. It may be a hundred years but eventually all bolts require replacement.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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The disturbing thing here is mostly that an accident like this would result in discussions of standards, certification, and the like. Accidents like this obviously DON'T happen every day, in spite of the multitude of bolts out there with people hanging on them. The likelihood (IMO) is pretty high that this accident would not have occurred if some seriously bad practices weren't being used (guy hanging his bacon off a single bolt with no backup comes to mind).
I don't think we need to go all crazy with wacky talk of formalizing bolt placement or setting up training in the gyms (ho mahn, that would be a really bad idea). It's plenty to recognize that these split-shaft bolts are unacceptable (as was done a few years back with anything but Ti bolts in sea cliffs) and should not be used, as well as getting the known split bolts replaced as soon as possible.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Well said steelm.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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If you care so much about the historic old bolts, a lot of replacers will leave an original bolt at the belay as an extra to show the original quality of the bolts...
Here is an original that was left for historical value. A new SS anchor was placed close to the original recently. It is a beauty.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 18, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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QUIT BLAMING THE BOLT!
This accident is NOT the bolt's fault!!
This accident is 100% pilot error, by not building redundancy into the system, and by not following standard operating procedures for safe rope soloing techniques!!
We need to get climbers to understand the above, so they don't repeat the errors and end up dead. What happens next? Someone replaces bolts, puts in nice shiny new ones, and now it's "OK" to climb unsafely?!
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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QUIT BLAMING THE BOLT!
This accident is NOT the bolt's fault!!
This accident is 100% pilot error, by not building redundancy into the system, and by not following standard operating procedures for safe rope soloing techniques!!
We need to get climbers to understand the above, so they don't repeat the errors and end up dead. What happens next? Someone replaces bolts, puts in nice shiny new ones, and now it's "OK" to climb unsafely?! This is absolutely true. In normal climbing circumstances or even proper rope-soloing you'd be clipped to the last bolt below. However, like it or not, it is not uncommon that the last bolt wouldn't keep you from hitting the ground or at least prevent serious potential for injury. There are lots of sport climbs where a bolt failure low on the route would still result in a ground fall. So there is still merit in discussing the replacement of questionable bolts. IMO, if you're going to bother having a bolt on a climb, it might as well be good.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:18am PT
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Fantastic photo Clinker.
Good call in replacing that bolt, but good call too in leaving the history for others to see.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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WOW no sh!t !!!!!
Thanks for the element MisterE .....
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