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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Ammon,
Where in my postings do I advocate that people of any level of experience climb beyond their ability or in a reckless fashion? While I stress boldness and committment on established clean climbs and challenge people to consider the impact of each and every placement in any setting, this does not make you rescue bait. A hammer is no substitute for judgement nor are my views. Nobody can be faulted for looking after their own safety in an emergency.
There is an old adage that climbing is only as dangerous as you are. Boldness is a personal choice and style always wrestles with fear and insecurity which is a crucial part of the drama that is climbing. Use force sparingly and as a last resort is the ethic that I am promoting.Try first, compromise last.
Relatively few walls go clean and are obvious candidates for hammerless climbing while on the sharp end. The same folks that are advocating clean aid on sandstone will also usually recommend that the second have a hammer of some sort to unseat nut placements rather than ripping them out by yanking on a sling or funkness device which leads to more wear and tear. Don't confuse clean and hammerless. Having a hammer, pitons and a small bolt kit on most outings is only common sense,the issue is when and where the use of this technology is appropriate.
Do you really want to kneecap adventure up in the wild air by encouraging people not reach within themselves when challenged and scared? The risks and insecurity involved in climbing and how we individually transcend them in order to succeed or fail is the core of adventure and the true soul of alpinism.
PS Just where was that Bolt Ladder Of Shame on the Turning Point that you were trying to lash me to earlier?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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Comes back to the same argument I use about guns;
It ain't what you got. Its what you DO with what you got.
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Back off topic.......I don't know any of the details, but I can tell you this - I know the TT soloist and he is not some snail-eyed noob. He is a very experienced climber (25+ years) with a number of el cap ascents (and descents) under his belt. He has bailed off the shield from mid-way up the headwall years ago as well as other precarious bails in incliment weather of more recent vintage - bottom line is 'not knowing how' to bail or being too scared to bail are NOT the issues at hand.
He is also a hardass, stubborn son of bitch (himself involved in the rescue craft) for whom a decision to call in SAR would be one of the most difficult to reach decisions of his life. I can only imagine the internal turmoil that led him to that choice, so (as Werner and Juan have suggested) lets not pass judgement on a situation whose details we don't know.
Its a shame this got dragged into the clean aid discussion as that is also NOT an issue. I have no doubt he'd pound a pin or many, leave all gear/bags or jettison it if he thought that meant he could self rescue.
God-speed to Werner and crew
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
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" Yes, hammerless is not for everyone on every route that has gone clean. In Yosemite, I figure hammerless is standard for Lurking Fear, Salathe', Nose, South Face of the Column, Prow (probably) and Half Dome Regular NW Face. But of course those routes don't have many fixed heads or fragile rivets/dowels. And they are pretty much beginner clean aid routes, so people on them would likely not know how to replace heads or drill bolts even if there were many. " -
The Prow does go clean ( did it this year - 25 years after I climbed it the first time - with pins ! ) but there are lots and lots of fixed heads. A hammer and a head kit will be needed by somebody - sooner or later!!
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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What did Steve House do to piss off Ammon?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:04pm PT
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I heard he pissed ON Ammon.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:11pm PT
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Steve wrote:
"Where in my postings do I advocate that people of any level of experience climb beyond their ability or in a reckless fashion? While I stress boldness and committment on established clean climbs and challenge people to consider the impact of each and every placement in any setting, this does not make you rescue bait. A hammer is no substitute for judgement nor are my views. Nobody can be faulted for looking after their own safety in an emergency.
There is an old adage that climbing is only as dangerous as you are. Boldness is a personal choice and style always wrestles with fear and insecurity which is a crucial part of the drama that is climbing. Use force sparingly and as a last resort is the ethic that I am promoting.Try first, compromise last."
I know of Ammon's climbing attitudes and accopmlishments mostly from what he's posted about them here. However as an outsider peeping in, if I read this and didn't know about the preceding 400 posts on this topic, I'd think you two were in the same camp. Maybe you actually are?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Damn peacemakers always gotta pee in the punchbowl.
Us gun owners know how to enjoy a lively shootout.
(kidding ok,.. just kidding)
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nvrws
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:56pm PT
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andanother: Dude get a grip..requiring a rescue after "giving it a go" is not failure, its bloody stupid. He puts a lot of people at risk (not that they don't enjoy it) but it is still un-necessary. Not to mention expensive. Your attitude towards this situation is a total lack of insight. Do you know how dangerous riding in a helicopter is? Do you know how dangerous rescuing a scared/freaked out person clinging to a wall is? Do you know that people die doing those things? But hey better whine for rescue than chip or clip or heaven forbid keep it together enough to let someone talk you down from a scary place ya don't want to be. WB is right, you are a nutjob.
This post is not a dig on the guy stuck on TT. just the attitude of andanother.
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nvrws
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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Maybe the guy is thinking about Chris Robbins... Gruesome outcome while rapping on TT many years ago. My friends named a route after him, I think he had started the project prior to his untimely death.."Valiant Flail to no Avail"
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:36pm PT
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for a brief spiel on climbing hammerless:
having recently climbed a wall hamerless; for the purpose of greater commitment, greater challange and lighter weight, a part of me regrets having done it that way.
there was plenty of manky fixed gear (old 1/4" drive in bolts with death hangers) at the belays. while they managed to suffer our passage the hardware was obviously nearing the end of its lifespan and a couple of new bolts have sprouted up as a result.
as we were in a position to do so easily i feel a bit unresponsable for having not done some replacement. we had the skill and time to remove the existing hardware and do it right, and prevent future parties from feeling the need to create more holes.
i will endevour to climb clean where applicable, but in the future will at minimum be equiped to perform proper fixed gear replacement.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
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Tim,
I really don't think you'd be in line for much criticism if you did a bona fide renovation of a decades old route.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Sep 15, 2006 - 04:30pm PT
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You Morons making judgement on others. We don't know what happened so let's wait and hope the climber is OK.
If any of you boneheads realized that the soloist had already made it up 10 pitches and has already led, rappelled, cleaned and hauled pitch 5, he might know what he's doing...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Lighten up there a tad Mark.
Nature of the beast and all. If the guy is really in a bad way then, as we speak, our guy Werner is on the case.
Werner and I give each other chit, but I say the guy on the wall is lucky to have him.
If the guy really DID pussy out then the flak is well deserved, n'est pas?
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Burt
Gym climber
hookers and blow baby...
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Sep 15, 2006 - 07:58pm PT
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Is he bailing because he is trying to do it clean? A little confused, so if he has pins and he is bailing what does that make him "another"? How do you get nailing a pin on a route to chipping a hold? Ron O chipped placements to make a clean one is that wrong? *Ron I got your email but you are an intimidating mother Fer to write back* just kidding talk to you later. He sounds like this guy flew a little to high and now he is melting his wings. Wbraun just bullhorn the cost of the rescue that should get him moving!!!
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
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Burt,
I think you may be onto something!
Bullhorn the bill.
Sack up or pony up.
lol
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 08:23pm PT
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The guy's not off yet? What's going on up there?
It is too bad that Werner inadvertently hijacked Ammon's thread. LOL! This mixed thread stuff can get pretty whacky.
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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Ron, you said "If everyone had to pay for their own rescue I suspect you would see safer more conservative climbing endeavors."
Yah, and more chicken bolts and more bashing of pins on those newly established C3 lines. I guarantee all the people pushing this, "climb clean or die trying" ethic, would bash a pin before they flipped the bill for an unfourtunate circumstance that left them dangling 1000 feet off the deck of a sevierly overhanging wall with the only thing keeping them from the top is one pin. Sh!t, lets be real, most of these self rightous, finger pointing, never straying from absolute perfect ethics climbers would nail several and tell know one.
I agree Ammon
Steve
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 09:28pm PT
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Burt said "Wbraun just bullhorn the cost of the rescue that should get him moving!!! "
Yep, even if he is one of the people jumping on Ammons case!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 15, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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Steve,
all the more justification for that layer of bureaucracy and regulation since you yourself admit that climbers won't behave responsibly on their own.
And when have you been climbing in the Sevier Valley? I thought you were putting up routes near Colorado City so you could spend time with your other wives you Mormon Rastafarian you.
(but don't worry, I won't tell know one)
signed
a "finger pointing, never straying from absolute ethics climber" most of the time,...lol
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