Honnold's NYT Article (Clif Bar, Personal Risk, Adventure)

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 61 - 80 of total 138 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 20, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Ooohhhhhhhkay... Maybe I'll regret this in the morning but here is my two cents worth:

As I see it, this overall event primarily involves the actions of Clif Bar ,and not the ultimate meaning of "risk" or "free soloing" or the general nature of climbing , or anything of the sort. We as a climbing community should have all those things dialed in by now---and we don't necessarily need to start a fresh round of hand-wringing or torturous self-examination vis a vis Honnold or anybody else.

By examining Clif Bar's Wiki page a wealth of implicit material is instantly available as to the possible reason for their actions as regards the summary dismissal of the "Clif Bar Five"

In order to avoid getting long-winded I'll cut to what I see as the chase and attempt to highlight a couple of interrelated developments:

The company’s business practices are not without controversy, however. In 2012, Clif Bar came under fire for not disclosing where they source their chocolate from.[24] According to the nonprofit Food Empowerment Project (F.E.P.), two West African countries, Ghana and the Ivory Coast, supply 75 percent of the world’s cocoa market. In recent years, a handful of organizations and journalists have exposed the widespread use of child labor and, in some cases, slavery on West African cocoa farms.[25] Volunteers with F.E.P. contact companies that make vegan products containing chocolate to find out if they source their cocoa beans from areas where slavery can still be found.[26] F.E.P. first contacted Clif Bar in May 2011, and the company has refused to disclose the source of its chocolate.[27] The nonprofit launched a campaign in March 2012 asking consumers to contact Clif Bar and demand transparency in light of the possible connection to child labor and human slavery.[24] On March 5, 2012, Clif Bar & Company announced that "100 percent of cocoa ingredients for CLIF Bar will be sourced from Rainforest Alliance Certified farms." [28]

So, here we see Clif Bar having a bullseye drawn on them by a left wing pressure group interested in the delicate art of political brow beating. It looks like once this "nonprofit" political extortion group approached CB for a possible shake down --- apparently the rash but natural decision was made at CB to tell them to go fork themselves:

F.E.P. first contacted Clif Bar in May 2011, and the company has refused to disclose the source of its chocolate.[

Probably at this point it would be instructive to provide a little background on Clif Bar relative to this discussion:

Company facilities include an on-site gym, rock climbing wall, two yoga room/dance studios, and massage rooms. There are on-site showers so employees can shower after their workout. Employees also have access to free counseling and life coaching.[31] Employees can bring their dogs to work and get two and a half hours of paid exercise each week with free personal training. Clif Bar & Company was named among Outside magazine's Best Places to Work in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.[e

Wow. Life-coachin'. A hip Northern Cali trendy-techodemocrat corporation plugged into the Obama donor network and uber conscious of their social responsibility and how they might look to the Berkeley political sciences department:

Clif Bar's community outreach began in 2001 with the initial aim of donating 2,080 employee volunteer hours to community service.[38] In 2010, Clif employees donated 5,290 hours.[39] In 2008, Clif Bar initiated "In Good Company", which organizes employees across several companies to assist in larger development projects, such as in New Orleans, East Oakland, and the Hopi Reservation in Arizona.[40]

Good huh? So why was the initial decision made to blow-off this FEP shakedown group?
Me thinks CB eventually regarded the 2012 decision as a regrettable mistake and reversed course by:

In April 2013, Kevin Cleary was named CEO of the company; co-owners Erickson and Kit Crawford became co-chief visionary officers.[2]

So folks, your guy is this Cleary fellar----who is a sort of fall guy/political operative more effectively plugged into the Democrat Party wheelhouse. I use the term "fall guy" because they've thrown the ball to him. Such as it is, at this point. To lead them out of the wilderness caused by that one moment of rash political incorrectness. Oh the humanity.
He's now been in the corp for over a year and presently they are looking at him to start making big course corrections...big decisions.
The "Cliff Bar Five" was one of those decisions.

The ultimate rationale is unclear--- but it may be as simple as Cleary thinking that if one of these high risk sponsorees buys the farm it just might give fresh ammunition to those aforementioned pressure groups to start a new round of brow beating, intimidation, and shake downs. In other words, at some point not only might Clif Bar be thought of as responsible for slavery and child labor but somehow additionally culpable in the tragic demise of a young free soloer falling 1000ft to a highly-publicized death below.









McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Nov 20, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
If one goes so far as to label Alex bullsh#t, then you are almost obliged to supply examples of who you might consider the real deal.

I'm not labeling Alex as Bullsh#t. I'm speaking of the promotion surrounding him. Even as a climber I was surprised to find out that he had climbed his most recent free-solo route at Squamish quite a few times roped. The sensational news does not let you know that, and it does not let the public know that - they have to dig for the reality. I'm just trying to point out that it is very misleading to the majority of people buying Clif Bars. It starts to feel like a con after awhile. Comparing him to a gymnast that has been practicing a routine hardly works. The gymnast is not trying to tell you they are something they are not. Are we supposed to think that the single high-risk free-solo at Squamish is somehow more important than the other 15 ascents that made it possible? Which is more real?

Here's a piece from an ALPINIST interview of Alex; "I'd climbed the U Wall many times before over my four different summers in Squamish. This season alone, I climbed it three times with three different friends. Cedar [Wright] and I climbed it in the rain on a day that would otherwise have been too wet to climb. "

This is the part the Clif Bar market does not get to see and is why I think promoting free-soloing to the public gave Clif Bar second thoughts. Me? I get a kick out of watching the climbing, but I don't fool myself thinking I'm seeing something I'm really not seeing.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 20, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
So, was Clif Bar shelling out a lot of money? Otherwise I don't understand what's the big deal. And even if they were, I don't see why the NYT is interested. They're having a slow news day? Congress, Ebola, ISIS, etc. not capturing the readers' attention anymore?


Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
Nov 21, 2014 - 07:52am PT
The conversation would definitely make more sense if we knew what kind of money we're talking about. I think there is a direct relationship between dollar amount and responsibility. If all they get is all the free clif bars a person could choke on, that's not worth dying for. On the other hand, for $50,000 a year you could probably have one of them perform any trick you wanted. Where's the middle ground where the money is too much of an influence? Maybe a lot less than $50k if you live out of your car.
YosemiteSteve

Trad climber
CA
Nov 21, 2014 - 08:20am PT
What he said.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:14am PT
I think that one of the NYT Picks comments sums it up nicely:

If your goal is to challenge yourself, to see what is possible, to see what you are capable of, to live in that moment on the edge between control and failure, between fear and glory, then maybe don't take the easiest route.

Between fear and glory. What glory? We create the glory in our brains, and Clif Bar no longer wants to contribute to taking what many see as a silly self-indulgent unnecessary risk and convincing us to think of it as glory.

That we here at supertopo with our risk favoring adventurous brain functioning like to think of this as glory because doing so makes us and our brain functioning glorious- that's cool. But where we fall down is when we succeed in convincing ourselves that this is glorious in an objective sense - that our sense of risk taking and adventure is right and glorious, and those other wankers are the ones with the faulty brains.

We humans are overwhelmingly good at confirmation bias - what I believe is true, the way my brain works is right - but really? Maybe we and our beliefs are all right pieces of a bigger puzzle, and this is an opportunity for us to understand how we're al(l)right rather than how others are wrong.
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:18am PT
I think someone should make a "Solo Bar" and put these guys on their payroll. I'm thinking a bar shaped so that you don't have to worry about putting it in a pocket or pack, something you could even carry if you decide to climb naked. . .in your prison pouch.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:36am PT
rbord, that was excellent.
Chugach

Trad climber
Vermont
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:45am PT
The comments from NYT readers are very telling about how the non-climbing world sees this topic - far less heroically than we do.

I like Honnold, I've soloed some and understand the attraction. But odds are someday he'll crater in (like so many others have) and hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:54am PT
It's a hard call. We like the entertainment and seeing somebody finding the space in their head to rise upward in ways that have not been done before. Personally I like the style Alex just climbed the Muir Wall in; fast, good runouts, with the rope there to take a good whipper. That's something people can aspire to.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:55am PT
"But odds are someday he'll crater in..."

Only if he continues. Apparently he's writing a memoir, which suggests he might be retiring sooner rather than later - at least from the more seriously risky business.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:57am PT
That we here at supertopo with our risk favoring adventurous brain functioning like to think of this as glory because doing so makes us and our brain functioning glorious- that's cool. But where we fall down is when we succeed in convincing ourselves that this is glorious in an objective sense - that our sense of risk taking and adventure is right and glorious, and those other wankers are the ones with the faulty brains.


What's "objective?" Show your work.

JL
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 21, 2014 - 09:59am PT
NOoooooooo!!
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 21, 2014 - 10:14am PT
Largo: Alex also gives us duffers something to rant and whine and wax about, and to feel like our thoughts and opinions keep us relevant in a game based entirely on doing.

Funny.

But, about the “doing” part. . . . It’s an issue of “being” to me. There’s a sense of aesthetics, ethics, character, experience that stands out for me about soloing. Subjectivity. No matter what, it is personal.
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Nov 21, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Chugach

hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?

PLEASE NAME ONE PERSON THAT HAS CHEERED ALEX FORWARD!!!!!!


















That's right, not one person comes to mind does it. Just because people are amazed at what he has done, and are curious about what he may do next has nothing to do with cheering him forward. Alex is too smart to give a sh#t what you think anyways.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Nov 21, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
But odds are someday he'll crater in (like so many others have) and hopefully someone, somewhere feels a sense of guilt for having cheered him forward. If Alex was your sibling would you be holding him back or cheering him forward?
-


Show us the statistics that scads of free soloists are dropping all over the place ("like so many others . . . ). In fact there are no numbers to support anything but the fact that free solo accidents, especially by experts in their prime, are so rare they don't even generate any meaningful numbers. And the notion that you, or I, or Cliffbar can directly infulence a free soloers actions is doubtful, especially from "cheering them on." We people in the peanut gallery simply don't have that kind of reach. And the idea that we should cultivate guilt for encouraging Alex to do anything but attend Catholic Bible Class is not a comment befitting an adventure web site, rather a kniting circle.

JL
AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Nov 21, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
Between fear and glory. What glory? We create the glory in our brains, and Clif Bar no longer wants to contribute to taking what many see as a silly self-indulgent unnecessary risk and convincing us to think of it as glory.

Clif bar will sponsor who they want, but eating a clif bar is pretty self -indulgent and unnecessary in the first place.

The fact they put a picture of a helmetless climber on their wrapper or market bars to kids with a logo of a child climbing seems silly in the first place if they don’t want to promote any risky behavior.

Handjam Belay

Gym climber
expat from the truth
Nov 21, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
Thank you Johno-L. Good one.

Some of us are needlepoint girls though. Tighter, barely tips, everything is tinier, working in a stretcher frame.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Nov 21, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
There are three kinds of lies: "Lies, Dam Lies and Statistics" Mark Twain

Scads of lads or scants of ants it only takes one. Off the top of my head I can quickly count five or more solo climbers who have taken the plunge.
Messages 61 - 80 of total 138 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta