Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
|
Whether this "interception" of ST PMs is happening or not, I doubt that it would be illegal.
pretty sure this is sufficiently covered in paragraph 6 that we all agreed to when we signed up
|
|
ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
|
In all seriousness, pound for pound, my parents 24lb former stray tomcat is about the toughest animal I have ever seen. I've seen him chase off an 80 GSD, and think that most dogs would back down from him. We joke that he is more wolverine that cat.
|
|
MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
|
Guido, first off: Eric is a good man who contributes a great deal to Facelift and particularly Yellow Pines gatherings during Facelift - agreed.
That being said, what happens in person and on-line are two very different sides of the interactive coin.
I am not a computer geek, but I know he is very adept at this type of thing, and the inner workings, and from all disclosure here was delving into sensitive areas.
As Nutjob (who is also very adept) mentioned, he was also messing around in sensitive areas (http security holes) and was asked to back off, which he did - also giving some good information to RJ, Chris and company.
He was treated politely and with respect. Draw your own conclusions.
I am sad to see Eric go, that is all I can say beyond the above statement.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
|
I am very sad to see Khanom/Eric go. He is a positive force here.
I hope this decision can be reconsidered. I would like him to return.
Phyl
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
|
It was pretty much cybercide anyways. He knew what was gonna happen. He said it in the op. He wasn't happy with the management and he chose to share his displeasure.
We will miss you Eric.
|
|
guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
|
Eric Lad
"from all disclosures here."
I see no information here or on the blown post that Eric was digging into forbidden territory or was warned about such transgression. Nutjob was but that is a different scenario and not related to Eric.
For the record it appears RJ and gang deleted my post on the orig Khanom topic.
So the interactive coin has been flipped and low and behold both sides are Heads!
|
|
Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
|
Dead Heads?
|
|
Psilocyborg
climber
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
|
the thing is.....this is all over ST policies not being clear.
just seems like a whole lot of sh#t over nothing
|
|
nah000
climber
canuckistan
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
|
[thanks for your posts, guido.]
here are a few comments regarding some of rj's initial answers:
1. Are we monitoring member to member communications?
No. We do periodically spot check, and we have responded to complaints of abuse in the past.
so more accurately that should be no, admin doesn't monitor every pm, but yes, they do monitor them whenever they deem "necessary".
2. Are member to member communications a secure and private communication that no one but you and the person you reach out to can see?
No. But, neither is gmail.
this is either a naive or disengenuous argument. larry page, eric schmidt or anybody else at google is not legally allowed to be opening and reading emails. even law enforcement is supposed to get warrants. to imply that the security and privacy of a pm that st admin can read at whim is on par with gmail's security and privacy would be funny, if it wasn't intended as a serious and legitimate statement.
We don't expect that anyone assumes that our member to member communication service is a secure communication channel.
admin was mistaken. while i may not have assumed that it was "secure" i did not assume that admin would be reading some of the private emails sent through supertopo. [and judging by the other posts, i'm not alone in this] while, i do appreciate the honesty, it should have been called LPM for "less public message", or some such.
[prior to this, i also assumed that admin wouldn't get politically involved and delete a thread about a would be vice presidential candidate, who was accused of exaggerating his climbing resume. given the ham-handedness of these latest rounds of "moderation", i'd no longer make that assumption. given the lack of explanation for that thread rendition, and all of the recent seemingly petty and sweeping deletions i would bet dollars to donuts that that thread didn't disappear without a little help from the admin.]
3. Would we remove posts or ban a member for soliciting for a competing guidebook or service?
Yes. And, we have done so in the past. We consider solicitation for a competing service or guidebook to be inappropriate on our site.
and by site rj means via supertopo enabled private email.
more interesting to me is that khanom wasn't deactivated until he started a thread letting everyone know that pm's aren't as private as many of us had assumed...
i'm sure that was just coincidence, and it was really all about "solicitation for a competing service". /s
pretty unimpressed, with the handling of a lot of this lately...
while in the past i've generally defended the moderation on this forum, and it has, imo, the best climbing content on the web, it's times like this where it seems that the quality is in spite of some of the underlying structure, rather than due to it...
while all those who say this is a private service, the owners can do as they like and if you don't like it you can leave, are of course correct, it doesn't change that a lot of the recent issues [dr.f, the kiwi, khanom, spammers] have been handled very amateurishly, imo.
that said, my intention with focusing on the negative is not to say that this place isn't generally effectively run. and i wouldn't wish the herding cats like task of being an admin on anyone.
but just because something is better run than its competitors, doesn't mean that there aren't places for constructive criticism. it is definitely a shame to see some of the quality contributors that have publicly left and i'm betting there will be a bunch more that we just won't see around here anymore.
assuming i'm not struck down by zeus' thunderbolt, i'll still be here...
plus, khanom doesn't have his competing site up yet. hahaha.
|
|
MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
|
Sorry about the whole mess. Apologies to all for any indiscretion or missed perception.
Ron is here, so I am out.
Peace, E
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
|
|
|
Oct 28, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
|
So were all khanom's posts deleted also? I don't see any.
If they were deleted, was this a good idea?
You can't even delete your own posts after they more than a week or two old. I thought this was put in place to prevent people from chopping up historical threads. Threads become difficult to follow if some of the posts in them are deleted.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:03am PT
|
The implication for me is that I'm busy downloading all the historical threads I'm interested in and I will never again spend time writing thoughtful replies on this site. One or two short comments now and then is it.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:07am PT
|
Oh Jan
Don't be like that.
Your posts and comments are some of the most crown jewels on this forum.
Whether they remain or disappear I will always cherish them within my heart .....
|
|
Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:11am PT
|
Good. Are you all rereading old threads and admiring the high quality repartee? Remember that zinger back in 2011? It was priceless.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:29am PT
|
AHEM! I shall now pontificate upon this issue.
The climbing partnership is ultimately about trust. It's one reason we, many of us as strangers, have some inherent bond. The ST staff has violated that trust.
Comparing a google algorithm that scans for keyword purposes, with no human attached, with RJ's "I'll snoop when I get a notion", which is what "spot" checking actually means in this case, is so f*#king ridiculous that it's LOL-MacEnroe territory (you CANNOT BE SERIOUS!). Yes, I am literally laughing at you for trying to float this lame ass "excuse" or justification. Take off your clown shoes and join the adult world...because nobody over the age of about 7 is buying that horsesh#t.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 08:36am PT
|
Jan mentioned: "The implication for me is that I'm busy downloading all the historical threads I'm interested in and I will never again spend time writing thoughtful replies on this site. One or two short comments now and then is it. "
I'm stoked you are archiving. The Frank Sacherer thread is the best one on ST in my opinion. Tops. #1. It's disturbing that deletion of a single person AND THUS EVERY ONE OF THEIR POSTS, can trash an entire thread leaving it looking a lot like a homeless person is having with an imaginary person. Hand waving and yelling for no reason. If the person who gets zapped started the thread, then the whole thing just disappears.
I concur with Werner, your insights are valuable. If Blowhards likes Dave Kos or Gary leave no one will notice and the site will be better, such is not the case with you Jan. Your thoughtful replies are of substance and have value.
Regards:
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:33am PT
|
I came to SuperTopo as an outsider, concerned about the disappearance of Matt Greene. I have been impressed by the community of climbers here and am concerned that recent actions by the moderators serve to weaken that community.
JR, I appreciate your trying to explain your company's policy. SuperTopo does a public service by hosting the forums, trip reports, beta, trip reports, etc. Hosting these things also provides publicity for your company's maps and guides and makes your company look good.
But for the forums to make SuperTopo look good, they need to be run fairly and the community needs to remain alive and healthy. I think you begin to acknowledge this in your praiseworthy commitment to "historic threads" and to restoring the science and religion thread if possible. I suggest taking this one step farther and considering that SuperTopo may have responsibilities toward the community it fosters.
During the year I've been on SuperTopo, it's clear that Khanom has been a solid citizen of this site and community. For example, he started the "All Purpose Wildfire" thread and made frequent contributions to it, and he made reasonable comments on other threads.
While retaining the Wildfire thread, you have deleted all his useful contributions to it. By deleting all of his comments on other threads, you have rendered their conversations incoherent. By deleting all threads he has started that have fewer than 300 posts, you have deleted the contributions of all the other SuperTopo members that have posted in those threads. In short, you have weakened the community, punishing everyone for the alleged sins of one person.
I can understand that you don't want people promoting other sites on your site. But I don't see how one comment, in a message Khanom thought was private, constitutes promoting other sites. Judging by QITNL's post in this thread, in a situation where it might be logical for Khanom to promote starting a new forum, he refrained from doing so.
I can also understand how you might feel uncomfortable with a thread that says that the mods sometimes read people's personal messages; you might want to delete it. (Though if you think it's just fine for the mods to read people's PMs, why delete it?)
What I really can't understand is then deactivating the account of someone who started such a thread, deleting all of their other threads, and removing all of their posts on others' threads!
SuperTopo is known to be lightly moderated. Some are uncomfortable with the occasional racist and misogynistic posts that appear here, but most accept light moderation as a current characteristic of the site.
These recent draconian actions, however, run contrary to light moderation and threaten to do exactly what SuperTopo is apparently trying to avoid. They threaten to make people afraid to post more than brief comments on the site, to alienate longterm members of SuperTopo, and to push them toward other sites and forums.
For SuperTopo's sake and ours, I hope you will do the following:
1. Restore Khanom's account to active status.
2. Restore his threads, including those of fewer than 300 posts. Restore his posts on all threads.
3. Make clearer that personal messages may be read by the moderators. (I realize that that is implicit in the terms of service, but it could be clearer.)
4. Apply all policies in a consistent manner.
To do these things would be a sign, not of weakness, but of strength.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:43am PT
|
1. Restore Khanom's account to active status.
I'm all for it.
He didn't deserve to get banned.
His true intentions were to always make everything better.
He had no real ulterior motives to clash with the owners/admins.
Sometimes we misunderstand a persons true intentions .....
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Oct 29, 2014 - 09:49am PT
|
Sometimes we misunderstand a persons true intentions …..
abosolutely..
And I agree with you about Jan. I hope she stays and continues to participate.
AHEM! I shall now pontificate upon this issue.
The climbing partnership is ultimately about trust. It's one reason we, many of us as strangers, have some inherent bond. The ST staff has violated that trust.
Comparing a google algorithm that scans for keyword purposes, with no human attached, with RJ's "I'll snoop when I get a notion", which is what "spot" checking actually means in this case, is so f*#king ridiculous that it's LOL-MacEnroe territory (you CANNOT BE SERIOUS!). Yes, I am literally laughing at you for trying to float this lame ass "excuse" or justification. Take off your clown shoes and join the adult world…because nobody over the age of about 7 is buying that horsesh#t.
You need to work on your pontificating. It lacks a certain superiority tone. Plus you make good points. I don't like the snooping either.
If someone makes a complaint about harassment, thats one thing. But beyond that. Stay out of my communications..
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!