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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:19pm PT
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Mind you I'm not against the use of a hammer when it IS with a plan for a durable route.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
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Well, there's climbing where nobody's allowed to nail nothing. This will happen when Herr Breedlove makes himself dictator of Yosemite. (Pending.) Ron may be in this camp, not sure.
Then there's climbing where nailed placements are kept to the absolute minimum. Some thoughts:
 Safety is often an excuse for nailing--in the heat of the snail-eye, this is nearly always a cop-out (my personal experience.)
The "20 Blade Pitch" will undoubtedly require blades, but NOT 20 of them. Tunnel vision sets in on routes/pitches like that and you say oh yeah here's the cherry blade pitch and start hammering. Clean isn't even on the radar at that point (my personal experience.)
Hammers are addictive. Done harder nailing routes that join easier, cleaner routes and found myself nailing unnecessarily.
Lack of self-awareness/creativity/?. Watched a partner swing into P8 of TT, according to ST: "C3 camhooks or A2 sawed angles or 5.10R." He was not a strong free climber at all, so 5.10 was out, and was a novice/intermediate aider who felt incapable so C3 without trying it or trying something besides camhooks. So he nailed.
Everybody effs up, even Ammon, who is immortal like in that Sean Connery movie with the swords.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Golden Age? Anyone recall reading Royal Robbins' Basic and Advanced Rockcraft books? He repeatedly calls out the pure lunacy of the enforcers of such obsessive clean climbing practices. Yes clean climbing is better, I would say most if not all climbers even if they have never aid climbed know that now days. Were talking about one pin here though! One! Pages of debate because of one pin! Who put it in? Some green novice that was scared? NO! NO! NO!
One of the most respected wall climbers of our time placed one pin! Thats ridiculous for us to debate this. Did he add bolts to it? No. Would most of us place pins there in the same circumstance? Probably yes. Where are pins acceptable to place? On aid climbs...Yes pins are still used in aid climbing last I checked. If a climber as experienced as Ammon decides to use a pin while aid climbing he should be the last person we would call out. Climbing is not so legalistic that we must be required to call up first ascentionist and ask them about every piece of gear we should use and know every trick to skip past the challenging spots. Aid climbing is problem solving and there is more than one solution, nailing is usually not the first choice, but is still a valid one.
Don't forget that most of the incredible all clean ascents must rely on pins that are already fixed in place to begin with. It should not be dictated to the whole community that just because one guy can do a pitch on only dicey hooks and ball nuts that everyone else must take the same level of risk when the history of climbing is certainly not this! If he decides to climb like this; good for him, but this doesn't become law now. This is similar to free climbing in many ways. Because the zodiac has been free climbed should we all now free climb it? Because someone soloed a pitch should we chop all the bolts and only do it when we are willing to solo the climb? Artificial inflation of climbing grades in aid climbing too?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
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" Some lines NEED pins. Some do NOT. Those are different things " -
That's all I was trying to say. Steve made it sound like using a pin or two was a crime against nature - like dumping chemicals or something.
Man, this sport is getting way to Politically Correct for me.
Ron - you're the poster child for irresponsible gun ownership - bringing class 3 weapons into National Parks!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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HalHammerHead,
you too are a justification for more regulation.
Ben,
this was interesting to a point but now that you have resorted to ejaculating BS it just shows how weak your debating skills are.
(Pretty funny how some people believe you can't legally possess a firearm in a park.)
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Quite frankly I'm more concerned about idiots in Yosemite spray painting orange dots on the rocks than I am about someone using a few pins on the Shield!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Ben,
you're still not thinking long term. Spray paint CAN be removed with at least some success, but pin scars do not heal.
Some MAY produce clean placements, but without a plan its hit or miss.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:02pm PT
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Well, I'll strive to use only upward blows for pin cleaning on my obscure nailing 2nd ascent in the Valley in a couple of weeks, ok Ron? I'll give it a try. I'll make an effort - that's all I can promise.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
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The trouble is, Ben, that is more than most are willing to do and the damage is cumulative.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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While I agree with the substance of Steve's original and subsequent posts I do have to say the "tone" is [repeatedly] a bit harsh relative his wanting to staying 100% focused on the substance of the issue.
If I "get" his complaint, then it would seem these questions are at the heart of the substantive speed vs. clean argument:
Did the desire for tick, time, or top eliminate any possibility of an ethics-based retreat at the onset prior to launching?
Was topping out (in a short time) the sole priority and imperative?
Was a hammer brought to insure the tick, time, top?
I'm totally psyched and inpired by Ammon's climbing, the number of routes he's accomplished, and the skills his times prove he's mastered. But I do believe Steve and others have a legitimate question here relative to those that will inevitably follow Ammon's [speed aiding] lead and influence. At what price should such ascents or resume be gained with regards to impact, "cleanliness", and route preservation?
Of course, all the above depends on the degree of Ammon's intent and deliberation at the time and on the spot. Rather than a matter of fanatical "tick, top, time" it sounds to me more like he simply took someone's advice to take a pin or two and after not figuring a move out did the obvious thing. No crime there, we've likely all done it or something like it on more than one occasion.
But on thinking about it I believe even in that Steve has at least a thread of contention to call Ammon out on it all given he does have so much experience. I personally think I'm hearing Steve say that, given who Ammon is / has become and what he's attempting to accomplish [overall], that he should better consider such [ethical] matters in advance given how many others are likely to follow his lead as a trendsetter (even if Ammon never deliberately strived for that role...). I personally don't think Ammon is about tick, time, top at the expense of the rock - far from it - but appearances now count in today's hero worshipping, media hungry, and commercial climate. To that end I see no particular harm in everyone re-visiting the substance of Steve's query even if the personal edge sounds a bit sharp.
[ Edit: Oh, and just curious, was the pin left fixed or was it cleaned? ]
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
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SG: "I just find flexible ethics to be rather lame stuff. Better to stand for something than straddle fences with a chafed ass looking silly."
Totally clean climbing means you should turn back from your FAs (or any other climbs) when they require any pins or bolts. Someone may have been able to do them clean in the future. Like it or not most climbs require flexible ethics, except for climbs like Nutcracker that show no signs of rock damage after the FA.
To have a good debate what is acceptable, we need to examine very specific examples, like the original placement in question (or generalize that to a generic question). Or these discussions tend to degrade to "you don't care about clean climbing" when I suspect most of us do.
HH:"It should not be dictated to the whole community that just because one guy can do a pitch on only dicey hooks and ball nuts that everyone else must take the same level of risk when the history of climbing is certainly not this!"
Agree? Not agree? This is a good expample of a specific statement that has merit in these discussions. Putting everyone on one side of the fence or the other won't get us anywhere.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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I think Ammon just missed the placement to the side because those dreadlocks obscured his vision.
"Get haircut, and get a real job."lol
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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i think in part this discusion is fueled by an incorrect assumption of speed climing tactics. ergo, a speed climber would be likely to make a rash decision to bash a pin in order to move quickly.
this does not compute in my mind... i would think in trying to move quickly a pin would be one of your last choices. clean gear takes less time and effort to place, and would by default be the way you want to go. especially on a route where you've only brought a couple of pins and didn't come with the mindset of a 'nailing' route.
this thread would have some validity for a bitch session if what you were trying to prevent is a rash of speed climbers nailing the hell out of routes that shouldn't be. but IMO, i just don't think such a thing exists, becouse by the nature of speed climbing this just doesn't make sense to me.
in such a case of a pitch going clean only becouse you can make this one crazy hail marry placement, when a pin can placed easily and actually makes more sense in the grand scheme of things, well the pin will probobly make more sense. maybe it should be left fixed, or as ron advocates be placed and removed with the correct technique to make a nice nut gobbling scar. then it will evolve to be a truly hammerless pitch, not a one move wonder.
besides, givin his resume, character and willingness to take a whip, i feel pretty much confident that if ammon needs a pin, he needs a pin. maybe sometimes he's wrong becouse he's human, but chances are pretty good that he's going to be right much more often than not.
(really, i don't have any idea why i felt like chimming in on this one....)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
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What's that Lassie? Timmy's in the well?
(Actually using pins for aid has several speed advantages.)
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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" What's that Lassie? Timmy's in the well? "
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Ooooh!
And its all so shiny and pretty!
lol
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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Jeeze, Ryan, want to out me or something?
Regarding my pending rule making abilities, I am really only interested in supporting the debate on what the rules should be.
However, in thinking about aid climber's free ride on pin scaring, I reached a conclusion that a rule saying that the only hammering that can be done is to place a bolt would be a shock but not the end to the world to Valley aid climbers.
The best part is that all routes except maybe the Nose would get new first ascents. (Okay, it would be a mess.)
I am guessing that as a community there would be agreement that some current routes would not be re-climbed for a while until someone invented a new set of tools or very high fall factor free climbing. But I think I made this statement on another thread before.
The most heartening thing in this thread is Werner's statement that the aid community is moving steadily toward clean climbing. Werner also points out one of the practical issue of not carrying a hammer and pins and heads on El Cap.
The most annoying dribbles have already been attacked. But I cannot resist a little more:
"I don't understand why you are so upset? I like to drive my 4 wheeler through flower gardens. It's fun to watch the dirt spray up and hear the sound of the engine gunning. People are such wimps. Besides, I saw foot prints in the dirt, so don't be telling me about 'leave no trace behind.' People should worry about important things, like world peace, or global warming, or something. Jeeze!!!"
The most unsettling thing in this thread is Ammon's post saying that he took pins on a route that he thought of in terms of all clean. What's with that Ammon? Why not just back off if you cannot meet an established, higher standard. Free climbers have been doing it for years. Aid climbers demand it if a hopeful is not able to get past thin aid without adding bolts. (Throat clearing here.)
I would also go so far as to say that it is expected of our champions. Of which you are one. Clean climbing in Yosemite got its start from the likes of Robbins and Chouinard making a big stink and showing the way. John Stannard did it in the Gunks in the same time period.
Roger (or Herr Buzz, depending on your take)
Edited
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:01pm PT
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classic Ouch!
Eurford...stop showing pictures of your pretty gear and pretty dog!
I really think the title of this thread is inappropriote.
Steve's choice of words discount the credibility of Ammon's ascents. As if his accomplishments are built on lies or unethical tactics or something. This is bullsh#t.
ducey says Steve is some soft spoken gentelman, which may be true in person. But on the internet he is just another dick with the rest of us.
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ewto
Mountain climber
My mommy's tummy
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Sep 12, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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OK ... complete and total NOOB question here, and I've only done very little aid climbing back in the 80's, and never used a piton... so forgive my ignorance, BUT:
Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? Every place I can picture putting a piton, I can imagine that SOME piece of other pro must be able to do the trick... am I wrong?
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