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MH2
climber
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Oct 27, 2014 - 09:12am PT
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We who are heirs to three centuries of science can hardly imagine a state of mind in which all material objects were regarded as symbols of spiritual truths or episodes in sacred history.
Sir Kenneth Clark
Landscape into Art
Perhaps. In spite of those three centuries of science, people are still drawn to stories that place our troubling and confusing experiences in a larger spiritual narrative.
And there are those who see science and religion as not only compatible but inseparable:
A superficial glance at at mathematics may give an impression that it is a result of separate individual efforts of many scientists scattered about in continents and in ages. However, the inner logic of its development reminds one much more of a single intellect, developing its thought systematically and consistently using the variety of human individualities only as a means.
In ending, I want to express a hope that mathematics may serve now as a model for the solution of the main problem of our epoch: to reveal a supreme religious goal and to fathom the meaning of the spiritual activity of mankind.
I. R. Shafarevich, mathematician
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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Thank you, Lynne, for again posting what I was thinking. Having grown up in a family of physical scientists, all of whom were - and are - Christians to the core, I always bristled at the idea that the two were mutually exclusive.
I think, though, we can't lose sight of the different methodologies. The scientific method rests on skepticism. We are always trying to disprove the conventional scientific wisdom through observation. We have an underlying assumption that our explanation of anything needs refinement.
In contrast, my Christianity - and my life - rests on faith. To my knowledge, no one has been able to devise an experiment or observation to test whether the wages of sin is death, or the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. While I think there are objective reasons to believe the Gospel accounts, our experience as humans gives objective reason to disbelieve as well. Ultimately, I came to faith through grace, not experimentation or personal merit.
To sum up, I don't think there is any contradiction in a person of faith pursuing science through the scientific method. Faith simply recognizes that relaity can exceed when we can observe.
John
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Oct 27, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
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I tried to make the same point as Lynne and John through 20,000 some posts and the thanks I got for that was people trying every which way to make me admit to believing in an old man with a white beard in the sky and a literal interpretation of the Bible. So good luck with that!
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Oct 27, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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just watched your video, Jingy
it is the single best source of rationality regarding one of mankind's greatest conflict of ideas
thanks for posting it, I urge everyone on this thread to watch it, all the way through
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 27, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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Religion is, by far, the most powerful institution in direct and active opposition to science education and research in the United States- particularly when it comes to evolution. This anti-science campaign negatively affects a host of other areas that have far reaching ramifications - the belief that a fetus is equal, and therefore should have equal rights to its mother, a denial that homosexuality, observed in over 1500 species, is a natural phenomenon of many populations, including our own, a failed campaign to prevent stem cell research, to name a few.
In our past, religion was also used as a justification for slavery.
Science and religion are undeniably adversaries in this country, and that conflict has exacted untold, unnecessary human misery upon its population.
Perhaps religion will reform and get out of the science business entirely at some point in our future.
I'm not holding by breath, however. Given what I know about the upcoming generation, I think religion, at least as its currently practiced, is largely doomed in the United States.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 27, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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a failed campaign to prevent stem cell research, to name a few.
 Can I go out on a limb here and say that we may have a few cures by now if stem cells were just used for research and implemented in medicines and tissue replacement therapies..
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 27, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
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Medical researchers found a way around the religiously motivated campaign to ban stem cell availability for research by procuring them from abroad. Still, the resultant cruelty of such a campaign - by throwing up barriers to helping millions of azheimer sufferers, paralytics, and a host of others afflicted with a broad range of maladies, cannot be underestimated.
Scientists do not drop bombs on people. Politicians and the military do, and many of these decision makers are religious.
Both the religious and non-religious can and do kill their fellow human beings. Given that the vast majority of Americans are religious, one can factually state that many of those Americans who kill others are also religious.
I'm not aware of anyone, ever, who has stated that all atheists are also humanist, nor that atheists do not kill their fellow human beings. Unsupported statements like these add nothing to any discussion of morality.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 27, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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How many scientist-atheists have worked on weapons of mass destruction
How many good Christian and Catholic and Muslim believers have worked on mass destruction?
funny, old anti-free thought lines... it always comes back to "I have nothing else, what about them scientist that made the H-Bomb? They were real meanies....
But doesn't take away any of the negative attention these religions deserve...
Medical researchers found a way around the religiously motivated campaign to ban stem cell availability for research by procuring them from abroad. Still, the resultant cruelty of such a campaign - by throwing up barriers to helping millions of azheimer sufferers, paralytics, and a host of others afflicted with a broad range of maladies, cannot be underestimated.
Though there is no cure for what ails me... I am one of these things... and I could be helped with stem cells...
But I'm in America... And those lovely religious types would rather that I waste away....
People are not getting treatments and not getting possible cures because of the religious minded people out there in the world.
I will often try to imagine the world without the religious....
Most everything would be cured by now...
Or maybe just a whole lot more than we have now.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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Most everything would be cured by now...
What a deluded fool.
Blames everyone else but himself.
The four defects the material body are birth death disease and old age.
No material science can ever stop those ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
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around the religiously motivated campaign to ban stem cell availability for research by procuring them from abroad. Still, the resultant cruelty of such a campaign - by throwing up barriers to helping millions of azheimer sufferers, paralytics, and a host of others afflicted with a broad range of maladies, cannot be underestimated.
Do you know why the religious started their prudent campaign? And to conflate Alzheimer's to stem-cell research is just a way for scientist looking for funding.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
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Both the religious and non-religious can and do kill their fellow human beings. Given that the vast majority of Americans are religious, one can factually state that those Americans who kill others are also religious.
what are you smok'in tonight, The Purple Conflator?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 27, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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I've edited my statement to 'many of those who kill others are also religious, which is, after all, true.
Thanks for the catch, Blue.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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Since only 25-30% of the population votes. Ur saying the 15% or there abouts, of Americans that are christian are running the nation. Maybe you jus need to rally ur troops?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 27, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
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FYI:
Voter turnout (of the voting age population) varies between 50 and 65%, actually (wiki)
83% of Americans self identify as religious, with 78% self identifying as Christian. About a 3rd of Americans self identify as evangelical Christian.
Only 16% self identify as religiously unaffiliated, with less than 2% self identifying as atheist.
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
The religiously unaffiliated are not a voting block. Neither are 'the religious', for that matter.
My civil liberties advocacy work involves working with a variety of partner organizations, both religious and non, on specific issues. For example, to end the death penalty in WA, we have partnered with the Catholic Church - even as we oppose them on other civil liberties issues. I regularly speak to church audiences on a variety of civil liberties topics.
Political progress requires building long term relationships and compromise.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 28, 2014 - 07:57am PT
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That was pretty good. Rick.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Oct 29, 2014 - 07:28am PT
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Here you go, Lynne:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/10/28/359564982/pope-says-god-not-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand
In a move that could be aimed at healing a rift between science and religion, Pope Francis has said that evolution and the Big Bang are consistent with the notion of a creator. And according to the pontiff, believers should not view God as "a magician, with a magic wand."
Francis made the remarks at an assembly of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, billed as meeting to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature."
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 29, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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Oh ......
He is the Supreme magician who surpasses all magicians in One fell swoop.
No mere mortal can fashion such a miraculous mysterious wonder before our eyes.
To say it came from a primordial soup is none other than poor fund of knowledge and poor fund of logic and reason.
The great magician easily manipulates his illusionary energies to bewilder the foolish rascals.
But to those who's hearts are infused with the divine salve of love he will remove the illusionary curtain .......
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MH2
climber
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Oct 29, 2014 - 08:50am PT
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"A medieval missionary tells that he has found the point where heaven and Earth meet..."
unknown artist in
L'Atmosphere: Météorologie Populaire
Camille Flammarion
Paris, 1888
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