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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"
That's scripture bro!
And where are Christians empowered to carry that out, Bryan? I'm quite familiar whith the Mosaic law, which included the death penalty for working on the Sabbath, or being an unruly child, among other things (although there is no evidence of the latter ever being carried out. Perhaps God gave that one to keep kids in line by the threat.) If you're going to stay in the Mosaic Law, "Thou shalt not murder" forms a major part of that law. "Murder" differs from "kill." Murder has always required the unlawful killing of another.
Jesus went so far as to condemn calling another an idiot as being as wrong as murder. I am aware of no scripture allowing, much less requiring, Christians to kill unlawfully, and I am aware of no church or pastor advocating such action. Your response does not offer any, either.
John
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 11:38am PT
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So are you arguing that God's will is for all human societies to enact Sharia laws, so that homosexuals can be lawfully executed and good Christians won't need to get their hands dirty with "murder"?
And Madbolter, feel free to explain how Lev 20:13 is here taken out of context. But instead of explaining it to me, it would actually be more productive if you explained it to millions of Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, and thousands (at least) of which think it should be punished with death.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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And Madbolter, feel free to explain how Lev 20:13 is here taken out of context. But instead of explaining it to me, it would actually be more productive if you explained it to millions of Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, and thousands (at least) of which think it should be punished with death.
Ancient Israel was a theocracy, governed more or less directly by God. In a tiny, close-knit, and theocratic society such as this, a very literal (and interpreted by prophets) interpretation was in principle possible.
In a huge, multi-cultural, non-theocratic society (ranging from the Roman empire to our current US republic) the epistemic hole is DEEP! Early Christianity recognized that a global reach of its perspectives would mean a non-theocratic approach to morality, which is why the early church was quite systematic in not attempting social reforms (note Paul's letter to Philemon).
Yes, a subset of present Christians like to think that "spreading the Gospel" REALLY means remaking society into their (distorted) image. But this is a deep conflation of theocratic and democratic principles. What the Christian era was really supposed to usher in was the "priesthood of every believer," one major implication of which is a very direct accountability directly to God, not through kings or prophets. But this same individual responsibility implies that "people can go their own way" without "enforcement by the church."
Yes, Catholicism has a long and sordid history of trying to reinstantiate theocracy. An abhorrence for that perspective/approach was a major driving factor in the reformation. Sadly, too many Christians still think that the church is to have secular power, despite Christ's oft-repeated claim: "My kingdom is not of this world."
So, I'll agree that confusion abounds in Christendom. But that does not mean that many if not most Christians would NOT wish for a return to theocracy. I vehemently oppose those that do. And it is a theocratic perspective that drives all forms of religious persecution.
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Jawon
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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So just for fun, I think I'll interject a snide comment every now and then about the original intent of this thread being to REDUCE mass spewing about Christianity. And then duck as my voice gets drowned out by the grenades getting lobbed over the walls.
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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Well what did you think was going to happen? It is their moral imperative.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Aug 19, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
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Jawon, you spewed about wanting to reduce spew, amirite?
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Aug 19, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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persecution complex
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Aug 19, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 19, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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"Scripture is not the true source of the living God."
How could human words gathered together in a book ever be the source of the original source?
"you can take me down from that bloody cross now, I'm so done with that. Let's get on to healing this planet of it's willful ignorance."
All this back and forth will get us all nowhere, we have work to do.
Scripture is dead. Go with the living.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 19, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
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an offer of a private conversation for those who want to know about Christianity gets hijacked ...
JEleazarian, what he actually offered was "to have a sincere 1:1 email conversation with a Christian on whatever topic is bugging you."
Are you saying that all Jawon as a Christian can talk about is Christianity? All other issues of spirituality and our shared human condition are off the table? You're an attorney, right? No offense intended, but Christianity is pretty boring, whereas spirituality and the human condition are not, IMHO.
If there is any hint of self-righteousness or know-it-allness in this post, I apologize in advance ..
If your worldview is true, we all return to dust. If my worldview is true, there is eternal implication.
There's the hint! What a magnificent worldview you have, with Christians as the only humans entitled to go to heaven. You sound like a good guy Jawon- apology accepted!
Sorry if a little nightcap is to blame for you creating more of exactly what you were trying stop. We're all humans I guess - live and learn ... You can delete the thread if it's honestly not what you want.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
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Jesus went so far as to condemn calling another an idiot as being as wrong as murder. I am aware of no scripture allowing, much less requiring, Christians to kill unlawfully, and I am aware of no church or pastor advocating such action. Your response does not offer any, either.
John, how is it possible to unlawfully kill on the orders of God?
Even I, a skeptic, would find that to be non-controvertial.
After all, doesn't God get the last word?
And this has been the reasoning used for thousands of years.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 19, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
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People have asked how Christians have affected culture adversely. here is an example documented by Atul Guwande about the development of general anesthesia.....which the Church opposed.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/slow-ideas
On October 16, 1846, at Massachusetts General Hospital, Morton administered his gas through an inhaler in the mouth of a young man undergoing the excision of a tumor in his jaw. The patient only muttered to himself in a semi-conscious state during the procedure. The following day, the gas left a woman, undergoing surgery to cut a large tumor from her upper arm, completely silent and motionless. When she woke, she said she had experienced nothing at all.
By February, anesthesia had been used in almost all the capitals of Europe, and by June in most regions of the world.
There were forces of resistance, to be sure. Some people criticized anesthesia as a “needless luxury”; clergymen deplored its use to reduce pain during childbirth as a frustration of the Almighty’s designs.
In those days, even a minor tooth extraction was excruciating. Without effective pain control, surgeons learned to work with slashing speed. Attendants pinned patients down as they screamed and thrashed, until they fainted from the agony. Nothing ever tried had made much difference.
Ah, the intervention by the servants of a loving God.......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 19, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
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WOW! Good post Madbolter1!
AND EVERYONE!
KenM, I'm sorry for anything any christian ever did bad to you. Especially those that helped to form your opinion. i really hope you learned something here. i know i did. If you haven't, read it again. There's a lot of Truth in there.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 20, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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Blue,
I don't think you get my actual point.
Faith involves unquestioning and undivided loyalty and deference to one's deity, as one understands it.
it is the unquestioning giving that is the part that most find hard. Of course, that is exactly the part that cults have taken advantage of with respect to converts.
Thing is, that to those looking from the outside, it is hard to see the difference.
I've always particularly had trouble with the sects that say you can do WHATEVER you want, then go to confession and have it all erased.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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Who decides who's getting scripture 'right'?
Hmmmm.
Not sure that's the problem.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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I've always particularly had trouble with the sects that say you can do WHATEVER you want, then go to confession and have it all erased.
Me too!
But do you think that an atheist moral relativism/subjectivism is any better? If so, how???
And I do think you're painting with a very broad brush regarding what "faith" is. I know that my faith is nothing like what you are describing.
That's probably the case with lots of others as well. I, for example, know a number of theist philosophers besides me who would take vigorous exception to your broad brush strokes.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
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Who decides who's getting scripture 'right'?
We can at least strive for an internally consistent interpretation. Sadly, in my experience, most Christians' interpretation does not even get over that low bar.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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Yeah, those fake Christians suck.
And non-Christians, of course.
Nevermind.
You're not gonna get it.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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ken M
"Oh, and I really enjoyed the nice touch added by the Christian church members who picketed his funeral, and thanked God for his torture and death. "
i was robbed once by a gang of black guys when i was a kid. do you think i should call all black people crooks?
of course not. stop being an idiot.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Aug 20, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
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There is hate, and there is love.
I laugh to myself when I see the atheists here spewing forth hatred towards christians, like they are somehow above them. Because they are subscribing to hate. The same hate that Hitler subscribed to, Isis, the crusaders, american settlers, whites, blacks,christians, jews and muslims, rich, poor, gay, straight and on and on and on....
I think I see a pattern there. Can you rise above it? Or will you just wallow in it along with everyone else?
Yes people have twisted religious teachings of all types for their own benefit. Can you see through it? Can you find the truth? It is the easiest thing to see because it is so simple. You don't need to believe in any deity, all you need is love....love is all you need.
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